What Every New Personal Trainer Gets Wrong About Money

Jay: Yeah, definitely, 100%. Callum: So, hello everyone, hope you're doing well. And today I'm— we're here with Jay, uh, Jay Fit Accountant. If that— is that right? Jay: Yeah, the Fitness Accountant Mid. Yeah. Callum: Yeah, yeah, that's a very interesting name already. So the entire reason behind this is want to learn a little bit more about you, about what you do. How did you end up becoming uh a coach? And also you're an accountant as well, and how you merge those 2 things together, which is really cool. So I'm not gonna wait too long and just take it away. Fire away, let me know who you are, what you do, and everything like that.

Jay: Yeah, so my name is Jay Johnston. Uh, I'm from Belfast in Northern Ireland. I work mainly with fitness professionals within the UK as well as Republic of Ireland. Um And basically what got me into coaching starting off was I was a footballer m my whole life, uh, up to the age of around 17, 18. When most people tend to sort of go out of the sport, and I uh got up to a point I was playing championship level. But at the same time, I was actually completing a gym photo shoot. So it was one of them ones when I was going to the gym, I always try to conflict the vendors. So it was one of them ones like as much as I should have been going to the gym, like obviously prioritising performance in the pit, I always found myself wanting to look better, um and I got to the stage where I was completing a gym photo shoot. And um basically what this done was dab me right down to the point where I literally had no energy to play. So I went from playing 90 minutes every week to getting to the point where I was actually able to tell the manager that I couldn't play on a Saturday. So completed my gym photo shoot and obviously got the very low body fat percentage. And to be honest, just— Callum: What body fat percentage was it? What did you get to?

Jay: I've got photos I can show you. I'm m not too actually sure, to be honest, but it was— Callum: I mean, it doesn't matter though, does it? Once you looking peeled, you peeled. Like, the number um doesn't Jay: matter. I feel like that's another thing, like, people really focus on like these biometric scanners and stuff, and a lot of them are wrong, do you know what I mean? It's how you look and how you feel more importantly. But that, that took a big glass there as well.

Callum: I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, my biggest gripe with body fat percentage is unless you're doing it, measuring it for a certain reason, like you're going to a photo shoot, you like to keep metrics. Some people like metrics, that's fine. But you know, if you've got like your everyday, I don't know, office worker, uh does it matter if he's 10% or 8%? Does he look good? That's fine then, you let him off.

Jay: uh 100%. I always say it's about how you feel internally. It doesn't matter how good you look. Like, I mean, it's different if you're going on stage, but for me, that's something that, as much as I have so much respect people do it, it's something that just wouldn't appeal to me. Callum: Yeah, 100%. So As you got more into that then, I mean, has your education background always been obviously working towards accounting? Is it something you wanted to do from a young age? How did that work out academically for you?

Jay: Yeah, so touching on just where I was left off there, so with— I came away from football and I realised I had a real passion for the gym and um it was something that I really wanted to go into, but academically, I was quite bright because I always just— anything I stuck my head at, I refused to be second best at. Uh And my mum said to me, she was like, look, like, as much as I see you being a coach, I think do your best going to university and going down that route. So I ended up doing both. So I ended up— once I went to university, I was actually— so it was originally an undergrad for accountancy, and that was basically what I wanted to do. But then my own diagnosed ADHD led me to actually doing a, I think it was a PT qualification in first year university. Okay. So once I was doing that, and then I went into second year, and I was coaching clients while I was in university as well, but main priority was still the accountancy. You know, had some experience there. Um, I was actually working in a small practise, which I was very grateful for the opportunity with. So this was basically a guy who I reached out to because It was strange, like social media, it makes you feel as if you're connecting with people even though you don't even know them.

Jay: Like this guy I felt I could really resonate with and he had actually done some shows. I think he'd done some PCAs as well. And I asked him like just for a bit of advice and then it ended up he actually gave me one day's work experience, which led into a 4-week placement, and then he ended up keeping me on. So I was with him for, I think it was 2 years, and then it got to the stage where he wasn't really teaching me anything. And um it got to the point that I was like, right, well, I need to be a bit selfish here. And I started planning for summer internships. So I'm not too sure what the situation is in England. I think it'd be sort of similar, but in Northern Ireland, you can do like the next, like summer internships in which you would spend like, like 4 to anywhere up to about 12 weeks in an accountancy firm, just basically gaining experience. So the first one I had done was in tax. So I was with KPMG and I'd done 4 weeks there, which I was very grateful for. And then just recently there in the last year, I've done 8 weeks with Grant Thornton, which was audit. So got a bit of experience, practical experience in the realm of tax, that was offshore funds. Um, the likes of the audit, that was again a different sort of area of accountancy.

Jay: Had a small practise and then even just being a coach myself, like, as I say, like, I wish somebody who was like myself was around when I started coaching, because to be honest, I didn't really know what to look out for. In terms of like, like a lot of people don't even understand the tax year, they don't understand deadlines, don't understand expenses you can even put through. And a lot of them think you can just put through anything. Do you know what I mean? Like, I've seen it all, to be honest.

Callum: Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a weird thing. We, we often had conversations with learners, even like well-established personal trainers as well, where they'll pay an accountant, and they always do. And um the idea is The better account you've got, the less you know about it. That's, that's what I always been told. The, the less that you know about your account and how— what is— whatever the figure is comes out the end. Like, some people's been earning £12,500 for the last 20 years, Jay: right? So it's, Callum: it's almost like you want that sense of Jay: uh

Callum: ignorance is bliss. You know, it's, you know, it's fine, you know, it's well, but But a lot of these personal traders coming through now, they don't really have the knowledge to how to start, especially what they get first off, how they survive. Because if you're going in as a sole trader, correct me if I'm wrong, you get those couple of years anyway to start building it up. And then when your tax is due— I'm not sure if I'm mixing up with a limited company— but when your tax is due, like you say, people are throwing in everything. Like The Aldi shop, you know, these new pair of trays at the bottom. They said it's work uniform, you know, dog food because Jay: it and

Callum: it's um worthwhile throwing it out. But if you don't know because a lot the laws are constantly changing anyway, yeah, you're never going to be clued up unless you're someone like yourself who's in the business who works. And I'm curious, uh did you find it difficult both working accounting and bringing up a coaching business because One of the things that we always struggle with to let learners know is you can't just jump into coaching straight away or a brand new business. It is something that you do build in the background. Did you find any friction with that or did you manage to work around

Jay: it? Yeah, well, to be honest, it's funny because it was this time last year, so I needed a placement as part of my master's degree and I went into, there was a company called Pure Footed. They're based in Belfast, but I think they've got different few locations across Ireland as well. Callum: Yeah. Jay: Um And I went in um and I basically got further deep in. I didn't know it was actually gonna be a proper interview. I got brought into the boardroom and um the CFO and the head of recruitment sat me down and um they were like discussing everything in terms of like, oh, well, you know, like you have all these big companies on your CV. So like, what is it? Like, why are you here? Sort of thing. And um my logic was obviously an accountancy business, as you say, mate, it's going to take time to build. But my sort of logic was, you know, to go out, build the accountancy business. And while I'm obviously building that and while that's continuing to grow year on year, I still have that coaching business, which I have been building for quite some time now. So that's going to give me the income. It's going to give me the capital to actually put into the accountancy business. And it's never going to be an overnight thing. Like, especially I think that's another thing as well with coaches, like They expect just to just turn in their online coats and be living in Bali straight away. Like, it just doesn't work like that.

Callum: Do you think that social media does that? Uh, we often have the conversation of, I think social media shows you the 1%, or it could just lie to you. I mean, uh, I listened to a podcast today on Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson, and they were talking about how people can really show, look like the rich, but their bank balance tells them a different storey. But Doesn't matter because how you portray yourself online will sell

Jay: to people. I think it is, it really is just the sort of marketing stuff. And it's like, even like, so many coaches buy followers and it's like, you can blatantly tell. You know, you look into their insights, you look at their views, and it's so obvious. Do you know what I mean? Whereas like, I pride myself, like, I've built my uh account from scratch. And if you go on to even like my insights, like, it's quite visible that I've done that.

Callum: Yeah, yeah, it's, um, so you said you're running your coaching with it as well. Is there a point where those 2 things merge? And I mean, I know you're doing it, you're looking to work with gyms and personal trainers now, but you know, did you ever get clients as well asking you for accountancy advice? Did they like cross-pollinate? Did it work like that, or did you try and keep it separate?

Jay: I think, to be honest, man, like when I first started I was kind of being a generalist, and then I realised, I was like, if you want to really do well and you want to relate to people, you have to specialise. And I looked at myself and I was like, without me even knowing, like, fitness is my life. Do you know what I mean? I feel like when you know who you're selling to, it's a lot easier to identify them. So the likes of myself, I want to obviously help coaches, I want to help gym owners, and these people are going to be in the gym, and I'm in the gym all the time, so it just made more sense that way anyway.

Callum: Costed. Yeah, yeah. Hey, that's the cool part, right? Because you're already dealing— the ideal customer for you is a customer who fits your alignment. That's, uh, I think that's what most coaches, even I guess anybody in any business, struggles with the most. It's not about the volume of customers that you're bringing in, it's the right Jay: customers. 100%. And that's like, even like, to be honest, I don't try to sell anybody, but I feel like Because they know I'm in that space now, and they know that I've got that credibility. I have that background. I've coached her for years. It's really a no-brainer. Like, if anything, it's actually them missing out if they go somewhere else because realistically, they're not going to be able to understand them. And as well as that, I actually got another partnership there on the weekend, and um the girl actually said to me on the phone that her cousin turned around and said that she couldn't put free uniform. And I was just like, well. There's different exceptions, like for the likes of, if you have, say, like branded uniform and it's clear that, like, say you have, like, like for example, my gym's Olympus. If it has like the Olympus badge and I've paid for it, has my name, etc., on it, it's very visible and it's clear there's no ulterior purpose, then it's completely allowable. Whereas this girl was only the reason that she wasn't allowed in, and um that's not even her fault. That's literally just because her accountant obviously doesn't know the industry and he's not really able to give contacts in that way.

Callum: Is that a problem? Um Like when we outreach to certain groups, so accountancy, uh social media, you know, website building, whatever sort of route you want to go down because they don't specifically work in that niche. Do you think that's where we're failing in terms of quality? Jay: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like I feel like For example, if you're a fat loss coach, you should be in pretty good shape yourself. You know, you shouldn't be— I know Callum: it's

Jay: gonna be very controversial, but you shouldn't be fat. You know what I mean? Like, it's true. Callum: I think uh my, my personal nature is I never want to tell anyone they can't do anything. But the biggest question I always propose is, would you go to a dentist with rotten teeth? Jay: 100%. Callum: Uh You, you know, it's, it just shows itself. And it's not— it depends what type of coach you work with, right? Like you said, fat loss coach, that makes sense. If you're going to a strength and conditioning coach or a powerlifting coach, they're gonna look the part. And the thing is, if you're going to a powerlifting coach and their one rep max is 80 kg on the bench press, yes, they might have all the knowledge and skills, but they haven't put any of it into practise. It uh might not transfer though. Yeah.

Jay: And like, even like for myself, like I feel because I'm, I'm quite young as well, like I'm 22, but I always had that in my head. Like, not that you currently think— Callum: Are you 22? Jay: Yeah, 22. Callum: Wow. I already Jay: want to be a November here. Callum: Yeah, I turned 30 last year. Uh, I'm ageing in dog years though. If you saw me like 5 years ago, I looked way more handsome. I'm just ageing like so rapidly now. Yeah, good. Jay: I mean,

Callum: being young then in this industry, especially accountancy, do you ever struggle with people not taking you seriously? Jay: No, uh I think again uh the way you're saying you've aged in dog years as well, I feel like because of the way I conduct myself and the way I handle myself, and probably because I do train and look after myself, I probably do look a bit older anyway. Like, when I tell people me, it's like, I had a guy there for coaching and he thought I was 28 and he's only 19. And I'm like, man, I'm only a couple years older than you, do you know what I

Callum: mean? Yeah, yeah. I think it's one of those things, it's like 20 years ago, if someone your age decided to do accountancy and go off on their own and do it, I don't think it had been as appreciated as it is now. Um, because I think when you used to think of an accountant, especially when I first started PTing, I think of like, um, um middle-aged to old fella, seen it all, done it all. You know, you want to feel like every time he speaks to me, it's a warm hug because, you know, your tax expense is going to be over the top. So you just want a warm hug saying, I've got you, mate, don't worry about it. So it's very cool that uh you're able to be professional in your job and not have age as a barrier because accountancy— again, I'm on the outside of it, but accountancy was always like as a very academic, long-term study sort of thing. Like, same if you were getting a, a lawyer, for instance, who walks in and is 18 years old, or she's 18 years old. It's the same thing. Like, do you feel confident? And— Oh,

Jay: sure. Yeah, I understand that. And that's the point I was getting at as well. Callum: Like, Jay: because I knew my limiting thing would be my age, the only way you can overcome that is I work on that. Like, do I have quotes from when I was 19? I've run a marathon, I've run half marathons, ultramarathons. I've done 3 photo shoots. of the highest degree classification for a master's degree. So it's gonna be— without an Argon, it's gonna be difficult to come across someone who even maybe 10 years older than me has them.

Callum: Yeah, that's cool. That is really cool. It's, um, it's good to have a CV as well. Uh It backs up— because we, we want proof. That's all we want. The, the modern age, we're the most distrusting age that's ever been, and we need proof. And you've already got that calibre. What's your ideal client that you like working with? Jay: Um, Callum: both in accounting. Jay: Oh, in coaching and accounting? Callum: Yeah. Jay: Do you mean in terms of like demographic or sort of

Callum: just who you like to work with? I mean, I'm sure you've got ones you don't like to work with. I've got Jay: a Callum: list. Jay: Oh yeah, I feel like to see people that are just people persons, like I am very like that. Uh Like, I like to go meet my clients. I like to go have a coffee. I like to be able to communicate, like, especially like, as you were saying, like, there's a lot of accounts out there. They don't really communicate with you. Um And they maybe only say, for example, like, I've, I've got screenshots even on my uh fitness accountant page uh there. And people would like pay for their accountancy fees and then they wouldn't hear from them until the year end. They have no clarity on what they're getting. There's no sort of communication. Like, I actually trained with one of the potential clients that I have yesterday. Um And again, didn't try to sell anything to him, was genuinely just wanting to like see where he was at with his coaching business and stuff. And then he felt the need to turn around to me and be like, listen, can I get a bit of help with this? So I feel like people that are always like wanting to learn and even like, as much as it seems a bit like, you know, maybe they, they feel they're torturing me. I actually like that because I like the fact that they are, you know, wanting to know and I like to, to be able to explain things. I'm not just going to say this is the way it is, you know.

Jay: There's always got to be a reason behind why everything's happening. Callum: Yeah, it's, um, I like the quote of always try to be the smallest person in the room, or try and be the least experienced in the room, because that's going to do you better. Um, it's like an old proverb, innit? You ah are who your friendship group is. I think it works the same in business. You are If you're the most successful person there, you need to change the group because you need to— you need to constantly be learning. This job's going to change forever. Doesn't matter what business you're in, it needs to evolve, uh and you need to be around people who are smarter than you. Um, I've definitely done that in the last few years. I've definitely put myself in environments where there's a lot smarter people than me, and I suppose it's good to have But also you need to test your own ego, because when you start getting a little bit more full of yourself, it helps you bring back down to earth because you don't— you haven't worked it all out yet, and problems are great, right?

Jay: No, 100%. I actually put up a poster during the week, and uh I was giving a lot of credibility to— there was a guy, we actually played football with each other years ago, funny enough. Didn't speak to each other for 30 years, and he went into university, and from first year, like We literally just went to the library all the time. Like, we had other mates who were going out drinking, but I think because I kind of— as much as I do love going and having a drink, I done a lot of that when I was younger, when I was like— when you're not really meant to be, put it that way. Callum: Yeah.

Jay: And yeah, I went to university, me and him literally just in the library all the time. And funny enough, we actually ended up basically getting the same marks. He just missed out on it first. And that's what I actually said, like, you know, you are a product of your environment, you know, and if, you know, honestly choose to surround yourself around people like that, then you are going to elevate yourself.

Callum: Yeah, 100%. You have to put yourself in a position where you can't blame everything else around you. Um, I have grown up around places, around people that constantly blame, you know, the outside of their own existence for what's happening to them. You know, they might not be in a job that they enjoy, they might not be all committed to this and committed to that. There's only so much you can blame before you actually have to stand up and say, I can change anything. And we've seen successful storeys, millionaires coming from all ends of the world. So yes, your environment can be a hindering factor, but it doesn't stop you from succeeding, right?

Jay: No, for sure. Uh And I actually know for a fact you say that because In our graduation ceremony, there was a public speaker and he actually said, it's not what happens to you, but it's how you respond. And the start of this year, uh, the last year there of my degree, I was in hospital for almost 2 weeks um and just had health complications, was just at an all-time low, to be honest. Came out of a breakup, week later was in hospital. Family were on holiday and university, like, I was texting them and emailing them. And um was like, look, is there any way I can get onto the lectures so I can keep, you know, studying even though I'm on a parol waiver here? It's, I need to keep going. And they basically said to me, you know, you may need to look at why you're actually fit to stay out of here. And tell me that ah I can't do something, it's not going to really go down too well. So basically what I had done was once I got out, I literally just focused on myself. Didn't really cross the door in the last year. I'd only maybe drunk 4 or 5 times. And uh ended up, I came out with the highest degree classification. And it was funny because the same teacher, and don't get me wrong, like she was only doing her job telling me that, you know, I need to be careful.

Jay: But the same teacher who told me to reassess why I could actually, you know, be able to actually see the year out, actually asked me to come in and give a presentation at the end of the year because my work was actually that good. Callum: That's a Jay: nice Callum: full circle moment. Yeah. Jay: You know what I mean? But without me being so stubborn, I wouldn't have. Do you know, and as you say, like, you can always blame a million and one things, but at the end of the day, do you know, if you're gonna constantly blame something— and I also like this quote as well: when you point the finger, 3 fingers point back towards you. So you can always point the finger towards anything, but again, it is just how you respond, isn't it? Like,

Callum: 100%. It's, um, I always try and have the mindset— and don't get me wrong, it's a mindset that you have to work on Takes a long time of where you constantly have to be curious of the problems that arise. Like, if my daily basis, if I base my wins off how many problems I've had, so the idea is that it's a win today if I've had no problems, I'd have very little wins. Like, every day there's a problem. Every single day there could be a multitude of problems, but each single one has a learning curve in it. And the more you learn, the better you get. And you have to be ready enough to understand that that's all part of the strategy to win. There's no straight line to winning. There's, uh, uh Miles called it the Valley of Despair, where you, you keep going really well and then you drop. And then in those moments you decide, are you gonna push forward? Or are you gonna scale back? You know, same people who started several businesses over many years, they get to that wall and they get that Valley of Despair. And they go straight back to the beginning because they don't think it works, whereas the people that actually push through and commit might actually get the win. And I think that uh matters for everything. Uh I tell this to everybody that ever starts coming with us for personal training, even personal trainers that have just started.

Callum: Uh If you're expecting to win straight away, you're going to be sadly disappointed. Then you've got to really go in with an open mind and an open heart that The failures are going to do you more favours than the wins are. Way more favours. Jay: 100%. Callum: It's either going to make you robust or, like you say, stubborn. Being stubborn is great because that means you don't give up. Um, like, my daughter is one of the most stubborn little humans I've ever met, and I know she's gonna do all right when she gets older. It's a nightmare now, but I know that she's gonna stick to her guns when she's older, um and That's a trait that really works well.

Jay: No, 100%. You need to be in it. I feel like in today's society, like, most people don't even know what they enjoy because they're too busy trying to fit in or follow, like, what other people want to do. Do you know what I mean? That's something I pride myself on, like, especially when I started coaching. A lot of people who I maybe borrowed with at that time didn't really buy into it, and that was fine. And I didn't really worry because I knew that later down the line I was going to meet people who actually align with my goals, align with my vision. And you know, the old saying goes, your vibes, your tribe. Do you know what I mean? I've built a community of men who we all have the same ambition of just being better every single day. And it's a breath of fresh air. Um And do you know what I mean? When you get up every day, it's like, I think when you're surrounded by people like that, it makes you want to be better.

Callum: Yeah, 100%. And to do it from a younger age, like I really started my journey Later on, uh, I was 25 when I started doing all this stuff, and I wish I had that ambition when I was 20. I mean, I was the same from as soon as I was allowed to have a pint in my hand. I was going out on the weekends all the time, and it was actually COVID that stopped all that, because once your job gets taken away and you— the only thing you've got, sorry, is your job, and all the fun bits get taken away that you're able to go out and spend your time and money on. you have to reassess, like, do I actually enjoy what I'm doing? And then that starts the thing. And I think COVID did a good thing for a lot of people in that respect. It really showed them uh a mirror into what their life is like when you strip away all the, the activities and extremities that you're, you're allowed to spend your money on. And it either made or broke people. And I think— Jay: No, exactly. What Callum: happens now, right?

Jay: No, for sure. Like, even during COVID that was when I actually only started my fitness journey. And I actually posted a video the other day, and it was me in the top room of my house trying to do push-ups. And without COVID, do I— I may not have even been where I am now. Callum: Yeah, I mean, that, that is— yeah, I stand by that. A lot of people benefit. Jay: I

Callum: think the people that didn't benefit probably enjoyed the fact it were either one of those things, right? You either enjoyed COVID because there was nothing to do, or you hated COVID because there was nothing to do. And like, whichever camp that you sat in, those are the decisions that you made at the time. And I'm glad I was in the camp where I wasn't happy because I was able to make those changes. But I think a lot of people now are realising with the, with the amount of access we've got to the internet, the amount of stuff that you can do And I think that's why the fitness business is as booming as it is in the minute. There's new trains coming in all the time. But the whole point is they don't really have a lot of ideas about what happens once you get into the fitness business because it becomes increasingly more difficult. So I've got a couple of scenarios if you, if I can run them past you. So this is like a starting out one. If I was, uh, starting a PT or online coaching business tomorrow, so let's say I set it all up, what are the first 3 financial things you'd tell me to do?

Jay: I mean, I think the first thing would be getting registered as self-employed, first and foremost. A lot of people, as much as you may not be earning m an awful lot of money, I think it's just treating it like a business from the very start rather than a hobby. Which leads me on to my second point, which would be actually tracking what you're earning. Again, as you know, man, like coaching's a very seasonal thing. Like there could be times you're making, you know, like having a very good month and then other times where it's maybe not so good, but it's important that you actually know, you know, your KPIs because otherwise, what are you actually going off? Like you don't even know if you're actually moving the needle forward or if you're actually improving and growing as a business. Callum: Yeah.

Jay: The third thing then I would say would be to open a business bank account. And the reason being is, you know, regardless if you choose to work off the calendar or not, again, I would highly advise this. You know, you're going to want to have a clear sort of way of basically identifying your income and expenses. You know, you want to know what's coming in. A lot of the time when people come to me, they have mixed usage. So they have a lot of personal use as well as business usage. And what that does is basically it takes me longer to actually identify what is business related. And subsequently, the accountancy fees be a lot more expensive. And as well as that, accountants sometimes aren't actually gonna tell you this, but they are adding on fees, you know, for you basically wasting their time. So that's just a wee tip for anybody starting off.

Callum: mhm Hmm. What would you say is the biggest mistakes that you see personal trainers and fitness coaches make when they either get into business or It's coming up to the first couple of tax years. Jay: I think it's just treating it like a business from the start. Like a lot of people, as I was saying about registering for self-employed, uh I can't really comment on the position in England, but I know over here, like a lot of people would try and keep a case in hand and try and just live off that. And they don't really want to declare to it. They are self-employed and they're just keeping it like that. But the problem that happens there is. say you do want to get a mortgage on a house, say you want to get a car financed, you're not going to be able to actually show any income if, you know, you are self-employed. And as well as that, like, you're not going to really be able to reinvest anything back in your business if you are just keeping the cash.

Callum: Yeah, yeah, it, um, I mean, I did joke earlier about the, you know, I've been earning £12,500 for uh 6 years, but a lot of people do it and A friend of mine, he stumped himself not long back because he got with his partner, he got a child, he was ready to get a mortgage. And what he had to do for 12 months is basically declare everything and overtime and everything to the point where his tax bill 4 times because obviously he's declared everything that he's putting through and then he got denied for the mortgage anyway. So then, you know, um I know a lot of people go down the route of, oh well, cash doesn't count, I can put all these expenses through. But until you like, you want to get some line of credit, whether that be mortgage or get on some type of ladder, it's all right up until it's not. And that's where it can bite you in the ass, right?

Jay: No, for sure. Especially being self-employed, like I believe it's the last 2 years sort of returns you need, you know. As you're already saying there, like, your mate, he just tried to just do it all in one year, which again could possibly raise suspicion as well. Like, if you're going from £12,500 the last 4 years and then suddenly you're earning £40,000, £50,000, you know, it's a wee bit questionable. Callum: And that was the advice of his accountant, by the way.

Jay: You know what I mean? That's something to take with you next year. Callum: So, sole trader or limited company? What is the best sort of route? Because this is sort of split in England. A lot of people like to venture down the limited trade, uh limited company route? Um, I know I've been recommended to it a few times because obviously you get those 2-year period setup and there's a lot more tax write-offs that you can put through it. But for a personal trainer and coach, what do you think the best approach is?

Jay: Yeah, well, I think generally there is a lot of ignorance around this. Like, some people just assume the limited company is better, and as much as they do both have their benefits, so I'll start off with a sole trader. So obviously as a sole trader, you're basically a one-man band. So we are, you know, accountancy fees tend to be a lot cheaper, pretty much more simple in terms of filing as well. And Callum: if

Jay: you think about it, for someone starting off, they probably aren't going to be earning an awful lot of money anyway, and they're probably going to be having to live off this. So if you think about it, if you were to start off, say, as a limited company versus sole trader, and you're only starting off, if you were a limited company, You're going to be getting double taxed if you're taking out all the money all the go. So you're probably best to start off as a sole trader. However, the question does get a bit more interesting when it turns to, Joe, possibly when you're hitting around the sort of €50K profit mark, Joe, consistently. Because then, Joe, it becomes a bit more interesting, but then it really just depends on how much you can live off, the profit you're earning, the turnover of the company, and where you actually see the business going. So obviously a big thing for limited companies is the sense that obviously there's limited liability, but this isn't a total shield. You know, obviously if you're negligent or, you know, there's misuses there, you can be found liable for obviously whatever it is that you've been found for. Um, but another big advantage of that as well is that you can leave money within the company to actually reinvest. And of course there would be a big tax advantage here. Yeah.

Jay: So obviously if you're reinvesting, if you're paying coaches to Like essentially if like you're uh an online coach and you have coaches working in like an umbrella kind of thing under you, that could be very beneficial. But I would believe in terms of, you know, to say one's better than the other, it is very subjective. You know, it's something that, you know, you'd probably want to run past your accountant and um there isn't really a magic number for profit really. It's a multifaceted thing.

Callum: I suppose the easiest way I try and think about it, correct me if I'm wrong, is If you're a sole trader as a personal trainer, for instance, that makes more sense because you're providing one service to many and it's pretty easy to track. But if you was an online coaching business, maybe you got a few trainers, but you offer uh different packages, different services, and the, the ballpark starts changing. You know, someone might commit to 12 months, someone might commit to 3, someone might commit to 6, some might be in person, some might be online. And then you've got so many different price brackets and different ways of access. Is that where a limited company makes more sense, or could you still run that through a sole trader?

Jay: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say you couldn't run it through a sole trader, but then again, it's like, if you are wanting to push the business, you're wanting to grow, of course you're leaving more profits within the company. And then obviously if you're wanting to drip feed, you know, income out through salary, through dividends. Then that's another question. But as I say, it really is just person-dependent, like, um and there's just a lot of things that obviously come into it as well.

Callum: So this next one, I know, uh, gyms will love this because it's a 3-letter word that they all hate. VAT, friend or enemy? Jay: I mean, if you're an online coach or a personal trainer, I could see why you would see it as an enemy. In a sense of, say, obviously, like, you have to register for VAT. So if you aren't actually taking that into account in your pricing strategy, of course that's going to bring your net sales down. Obviously, you're already in a pretty volatile, you know, industry. You know, if you are going to raise your prices, it may go against you in that way as well. I would say where it would be beneficial is if, say, like, you've uh had, like, a major refurbishment, say, like, in terms of equipment. software, then it could be beneficial, maybe in a sense of credibility, you know, especially like, say, like for talk's sake, like if I was the VAT register, a lot Callum: of

Jay: people will see that and be like, oh, well, they must be doing well. And as you said before, mate, like with social media, you buy into that, you know, you buy into seeing them out in Bali, you buy into seeing them doing so well, when in reality it may actually not be the case at all. Callum: So do you see VAT sometimes, people use it as a badge of honour? saying, I earn only £90,000.

Jay: Yeah, for sure. Like, I mean, I mean, it's definitely a— if I was getting in the round numbers, I'd be quite happy. Callum: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose, uh, yeah, I've never looked at it. Yeah, people do use it like that, I suppose, as well. I think if you're planning to make VAT inclusive as well, you're sort of projecting that you're going to be— because if you were uh just tipping that £90,000 margin And literally just your tip end just into that uh £90,000, and then the next 6 months you grossly go under that. Is that where the risk is?

Jay: Again, it just really depends. Like, I could see why it would be frustrating for an online coach if they aren't really— you know, there isn't much capital expenditure there where they can actually claim that back. So yeah, I could definitely see the argument for it. Like, Callum: Yeah. So you said this at the start, uh but what can actually go through the business? So what can you put through your business right from day dot that is going to benefit you both as a sole trader and a limited company?

Jay: Yeah, so the likes of advertising costs, they can go through marketing, stationery, uh, internet costs. business fuel to the, the business portion of your phone bill, stuff like that. There, even as I said, I touched on earlier, uniform, specialist, uh, children for uniform, and then like the likes of dem equipment as well. Callum: Yeah, I will, um, I've got a few friends, I won't name them, who uh are sort of a bit of a Laurel and Hardy when it comes to their limited company. Uh, he mainly works from home, but he has his own business. And he said, why are you not thinking about getting a company vehicle for your business under? Does that, how does that work then? Is it like sort of uh finding the right vehicle? Because I can't imagine him, I mean, he's, he were driving around a brand new Audi at that point. Can't imagine that's a really good work vehicle. Because when you think work vehicle, you're thinking, you know, boarded up work van, long wheelbase. So what's, what's the rule with that then? If you were a coach, for instance, who wanted to put their uh the vehicle through it, would that work?

Jay: Yeah, so like if you had a limited company, for example, so you're touching on like the next benefits and kind, and then you fall into different tax pools as well. It could depend on CO2 emissions. So you're seeing uh a growing popularity of electric cars as well. There was actually an accountant I worked for before, he actually had a Porsche and it was like a hybrid model, and he was able to put that through, uh, the company as well. But Of course, it's the business usage of it is allowed, but obviously personal usage you would have to factor in as well.

Callum: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Involving all the school runs, shop runs, pub runs, whatever you're doing. Yeah. It's not really going to work. I get that. Turnover. This is, this is an interesting one to me. So turnover isn't profit. So a PT telling you that he made £80,000 last year, What do you immediately want to know whether they've actually got a successful business? Is that the outgoings as well?

Jay: Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, firstly, I'd want to identify the profit margins as well. I'd want to be looking at the expenses, what they're actually spending money on. You know, especially if it's, say, for example, an online coach, are their clients actually paying on time? And, you know, as you were saying there, I think before as well, do you know turnover? Isn't actually a main measurement. Like, of course, like, you could be very profitable as a business, but have limited cash flow. And if you have limited cash flow and say, for example, you are a limited company and you have quotas to pay, I don't think they're going to be too happy if you can't pay them on time either. So there is, again, a lot of things that come into that. But basically, you know, you want to definitely see if you have the adequate cash flow for a starter.

Callum: Yeah. Yeah. So tax efficiency versus tax avoidance. So the difference between being efficient and being avoidant is— I know it's like a fine line with it, right? Because some people can really be efficient, like 12 months, they know what they're planning in their expenses. And you got people who's just not talking about it whatsoever. So what, what's, what's the main differences um on what can you see?

Jay: Yeah. So tax efficiency, it's, it's completely legal. You know, it's legal ways of obviously being tax efficient and obviously create the tax advantage. So as we touched on um before, possibly this could be from changing corporate structure. This could be from changing from sole trader to a limited company for tax benefits. It could also be putting through legitimate business expenses to obviously reduce your tax bill. But where there's a fine line, as you say, tax avoidance, the one that goes to my head straight away is people just not declaring at all. So like, as I was touching on earlier, People just having solely case businesses and they're not even registered for self-employed. That is completely illegal. And, you know, people think they're getting away with it, but HMRC, you know, they're smarter than what you think. Like, you know, just because you got away with it the last 5 years doesn't mean they're not going to catch you in the 6th, and you may be liable to pay all of that plus penalties on top of them.

Callum: Yeah, this is a common argument, and this sort of relates. So Because we provide a course, a lot of people turn around to us and say, "Well, I don't need a course to be a personal trainer. I can just train people at the gym, take cash payments." You can, but what you can also do is drive a car without a licence. Now, the licence doesn't tell you that you can drive. The licence tells you that you're legally allowed to drive and be insurable. So the idea is you're doing it from a safe perspective, both for you and your clients, because if you're training someone in a gym and You get them hurt, and they want to go down a legal route. You've got no standing point whatsoever. You've got no, and even down the accounts you route as well, because that's the first thing that people want to know how legitimate you are. And I think that translates so much, you know, and I I see it all the time. Like the amount of people in my area and beyond that are now online coaches because they've had a transformation. But we've done no cost, no recognition, doing it all online. And it's just like, there's gonna be a point where you're gonna get caught. There's a paper trail.

Jay: That's what I was actually gonna touch on as well. Like, I don't know if it's the same in England, but I find over here— I'm from Belfast, as I said earlier— and a lot of the time people will just do a photo shoot and then a couple weeks later it's like, oh, I am a coach. Don't get me wrong, I love to see it, but as you say, like, are they actually qualified and have they actually done courses to actually be able to do that? Or are they just basing off what their coach has told them the last 6 to 8 weeks? Do you know what I mean? Because there's a complete difference.

Callum: Like, that's, that's the problem. Um Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you learned a lot during your coaching experience. That's nothing shit. And there's a good chance that you could transfer that on to getting other people results. That's fine. But knowing how to ride a bike and knowing how the bike works is different. And knowing emotional intelligence, how to speak to people, how to relate. Because uh a lot of the, the biggest part of coaching, and I'm sure you'll agree, is not about the prescription of exercise and nutrition. It's about working out where people's problems are and working with— because realistically, if it was easy as giving a programme and a nutrition plan, we'd have been done over by ChatGPT years ago. There'd be no need for us. But what ChatGPT can't do is walk, walk you through how your week looks, diagnose. So you, you couldn't finish that session, you couldn't make this session, you're missing out on calories, you're not, you're undereating, you're overeating, and we figure out why. What are these traits and triggers that are knocking you off plan? The AI is not going to know how to do that. So that's where the coach comes into it and The problem is when people start doing this as a job with little knowledge or value of working with people, that's where the gap's going to be. And yes, you can get them a result, but is it a maintainable, sustainable result?

Callum: You work with someone for 8 weeks and you drop them 10 kilos. That's great. Do they know how to keep the 10 kilos off? Do they know how to uh keep progressing after their time with you? Because it's not just about the time with you, it's afterwards as well. They need to know with enough knowledge that they can keep going with it. Like, I learned an interesting figure the other day. Uh, I might be getting this wrong, but I think it was around 80%. So you remember The Biggest Loser USA? Jay: No, actually I haven't seen that before.

Callum: So it was a very, very big popular competition where they took in very large obese people And it was a competition to see who could lose the most amount of weight and get in the best shape. Um It were over a certain period of time, I think it was around 90 days, um and they got some insane results. People losing hundreds of pounds, you know, for prize money as well. Um And they caught up with them after 5 years. Nearly over 80 to 90% of people put the weight back on and more. And the idea is There was no aftercare, so they just went back to their life. And then, you know, they look great, but it wasn't maintainable. And I suppose that uh where I'm getting to is, yes, you might know how to get the result, but it's about the, the result for the person, not just the result. And, you know, you can post 20 people on your page about how you've got them in insane shape, but do they feel good? Do they sleep better? Uh Can they spend more time with the kids? Because we're not dealing with just athletes anymore. We're dealing with regular people who want to get in shape, so it has to mean something,

Jay: right? 100%. And I guess even when people come to me, like, I don't want them just winning the gym. Like, I want them winning in all aspects of life. And I think that's something that I always live by as well. Like, I always mention on my Instagram, Joe, my training's going well, my business is going well, even the way I talk to myself, everything is going well. And I feel like even— I actually had a client there who completed the photo shoot And like, he's, he's Fran, do you know what I mean? And it's like, you see so many people, as you say, they'll do photo shoots and then like you see them maybe 6 weeks later and you're like, that's, uh that's not you. Like, yeah, because as you say, there's been no aftercare and there's been no sort of thought process to it.

Callum: Yeah, like you give everyone the tools but you don't teach them how to use it. So the strategy that most PTs don't know, so What is one completely legal tax plan that they implement into their business that will help them be a little bit more successful? Jay: Well, it's gonna sound cliché, but investing in an accountant who actually understands your field. And Callum: there we go, here's Jay: the Callum: plug.

Jay: The reason I'm saying that is firstly, a good accountant needs to be able to save you money first and foremost. So that's going to be tax efficient, completely legal. Um And the thing that puts a lot of people off, which again is very small-minded, is the accountancy fees. But what people don't realise is the accountancy fees are tax deductible when they're for your business. So again, it's going to lower that profit margin down. Callum: Mm-hmm.

Jay: But the thing is, rather than you wasting time on worrying about your tax return, you could be putting that into your business as well. So you're losing value everywhere by not choosing an accountant. And this isn't even just me, this is just generally like even for like consultancy businesses or like someone out there. Do you want someone to understand your business?

Callum: I think that's another job that people try and use, um, different softwares for and different AIs and stuff like that. I don't need to pay for that, I can do it on my own. Yeah, but you're not dealing with human beings who actually know how to advise you because I'm old school to the fact where For instance, as a thing, I, I have an app for my life insurance, but if I want to speak about my life insurance, instead of going on to a chatbot and speaking about my stuff that's in there, I'd rather get on the phone to somebody and speak about it like a real person because I feel more comfortable talking about things that matter to me with someone who's on the other side of the phone or the other side of the desk or whatever, who has an interest in what we're doing. Rather. uh And that's the problem. That's where a lot of people really struggle in terms of making that connection. Yes, to some degree you might be able to get your taxes done. Are they going to be as efficient? Probably not. Is it going to take you way more time and way more stress? Probably. So why give yourself another job to do? You've already— you're already a coach, you're already the uh admin, you're already the social media guy. Give that job to somebody else, right?

Jay: 100%. And this is the thing as well, like, even when we were doing our tax exams, we actually had a, it was like a case study. And it was like ChatGPT had said this and it was blatantly wrong. But like, people are actually relying on this and it's not only out there. They feel that they can rely on this and it's going to get them by, but like, you can still be getting fine penalties for using ChatGPT and solely relying on that. So why would you even take a chance?

Callum: Yeah, 100%. 100%. So this is a closing question, but this is one of my favourites. So you're, uh, you've got given a PT who earns £30,000 a year Jay: and Callum: he uh wants to build a £100,000 a year fitness business. What is something that they can change about the way they go from their day-to-day of making money? M

Jay: I uh would say it's important to know, as much as it's appreciating that obviously where you are now, it's realised that what got you here isn't always going to get you there. And what I mean by that is like, don't be afraid to invest money. As much as an accountant, again, it's going to sound contradictory, you know, obviously an accountant should be saving you money, but at the same time, don't be afraid to spend money on the right things. Like, When I started coaching, I invested in an elite-level bodybuilding coach who just completely just blew my mind. Like, he changed my whole outlook on fitness and training. And uh from that, it got me better client results. I got in better shape. I started to get respected more, was able to charge more. So don't be afraid to spend money on the right things. You know, mentorships get a bad name, but you know, there probably is a couple out there that are actually pretty decent. Or as I say, like, go to someone, as you were talking earlier, like you wouldn't go to a dentist that has rotten teeth, so go to someone who's walked the walk, you know, whether uh it's an elite coach, maybe it's a business owner. Do you aspire to be like, you know, the person putting it in there?

Callum: And collaborate, right? Like, so many people in this industry that we believe to be uh our competitors, right? And this is why I like the fact that you reached out to us as well, and it was sort of the great time that you did, because the— what we want to try and do different is find people who feel the same, is This is about collaboration. Everybody can win. We can all do it together. We've all got the same purpose. We're all in the fitness business for the same reason. We want somebody to win, including us. And whether that be the client, whether that be the learner, whether that be the Fit Accountant, whether that be PT Launch Lab, everyone should win. Like, as long as you're going with the intention of actually helping people and someone on the end of that getting a benefit out of it, we should all win for that. And collaboration is one of the things that's going to take you from where you are now to where you think you can be and beyond that.

Jay: 100%. And I always like the old quote, it's like, winners collaborate, losers compete. Callum: Yeah, Jay: well, I'm like a big, big fan of that. Like, Callum: yeah, yeah, it's, um, one of the things that I've enjoyed about this business, and I still enjoy about this business, is actually getting on and having conversations and speaking with people like yourself who has got a very good mindset on helping people. And probably a good time to say, like, we obviously, we partnered up, which is fantastic. Jay: And

Callum: I'll let you take it away about what— how are you going to help, what you're going to do. But I'm very looking forward to working with Jay: you. No, I appreciate that, mate. I'm very much looking forward to the same, working with yourself and helping the upcoming generation of fitness professionals. As I said earlier, to know that there was someone like me who was about when I started off, because to be honest, even as much as I was doing accountancy, I didn't really have a clue because I didn't have the hands-on experience. You know what I mean? I didn't know what could qualify as a business expense, even when the deadlines were, or even how to file a tax return, to be honest with you.

Callum: Yeah, yeah. It's something, yeah, for most people, like you say, something that you learn a couple of years into your business, which sort of sounds weird, right? Uh That should be something that should be done from day dot. I think that's why it's really useful for people to hop on a call with yourself and actually get a good idea about what the protection looks like. Otherwise, like I say, you don't want to be fighting blind or going into the dark on your own, right?

Jay: No, definitely. Uh And that's another service I was actually going to touch on as well, is business consultancy. So I'm actually working with a couple of guys at the minute who have only started doing their PT qualification. And it's basically just helping them with getting clear on their offer as well. Who they're actually, their client avatar is and who they actually want to work with because a lot of people aspire to be coaches and aspire to help people, but they just don't know how to sort of go about it. So I feel like having that experience myself and obviously working with yourself too, you know, I can add valuable insights in that way. Even how to grow your social media. Like, as I was touching on earlier, like, I've grown my Instagram to almost 9,000 followers completely organically. You know, I've maybe bought a couple of ads over the years, but it hasn't been anything overly material. And if you look at my insights and you look at my views, it's clear as day to see that not one follower has been bought. Unlike a lot of these other influencers you'll see out there, like, it's just completely obvious from the get-go.

Callum: Yeah, 100%. So what we like to try and do towards the end— this is new— is try and get a hot take from you, something that will get people thinking. What is your hot take on the industry or the accountancy business? Something that you would probably think is a really viable topic to bring? Jay: In what way? Callum: So something that might spark a little bit of conversation. So have you got a hot topic about the fitness industry, something that you believe, you think that needs to change, uh or something that you noticed?

Jay: I would think, to be honest, like just looking out for trends, like we've seen the growth in HIROCs over the last few years. Like if you'd asked me 5 years ago what HIIT was, I couldn't have even told you. I think it's been a war. And as you say, like, as well as, as much as like the laws are changing for accounting and being compliant, look at the fitness industry. It's constantly changing. We've seen a growth in HIIT, running, you know, like there's a real position for running coaches, HIIT coaches, which just wasn't there 5 years ago. As you said, like a lot of people just want to look good and feel good, which is 100%, but there's definitely an avenue there for different coaches to actually niche down. Obviously the way I am as well, like I'm leasing within the fitness industry and uh because the amount of chains and the amount of trains now, it's actually enabled me to do that. Whereas possibly before I maybe couldn't have done that, but obviously there's that many professionals to work with now, do you know what, it's actually obviously enabled me to do so.

Callum: That's awesome. So can you let people know where they can find you online and your plugin, your handle? Jay: Yeah, for sure. So my main sort of way of getting through to me is on the Instagram. Uh, The Fitness Accountant, M-A-C-C. I've also got a website which you can visit if you actually click on the Instagram as well. I'm awaiting getting put on Google. I'm not too sure when that's gonna go up, but I do have it pending. Again, not too sure. I keep searching every day, but I'm not too sure when that's gonna go up. But mainly Instagram. And as I say, if you wanna jump on a call, feel free to reach out. I've got an email there as well, um and we can get the ball rolling. Joe, maybe me look at your business. Joel, you're wanting to just inquire and just see what I'm all about. But yeah, definitely keen to just help in any way I can.

Callum: That's fantastic. Well, it's been great to have you, Joe. Um, hopefully we'll be seeing a lot more of you. There'll probably be a lot more talks and obviously getting interactive with the learners as well, but really great talking to you today, mate. Jay: Yes, man, I appreciate that. Same goes. Callum: Cheers, everybody. Thank you. Jay: Thank you, mate. Take it easy.