How to Market Yourself as a Personal Trainer (Without Going Viral)

Miles: So, the the next podcast guest we have on the PT Launch Lab podcast is none other than my old friend Josh. Josh from Axxis helps personal trainers with their branding, the systems, the social media, and he's we're lucky to have him now as part of PT Launch Lab helping graduates from the courses building a successful PT business. So because we go way back, Josh, I'll let you explain how you got into the industry.

Josh: Yeah, it's a good story as well. So obviously for those that are watching, obviously Miles was like my first mentor, boss. I started doing my level 2 as a gym instructor. First thing I wanted to do was just work in a gym. And obviously we started, for those of you who don't know, it's Sixfit, but to me it's always gonna be Strength 1. Is that the original name? Streamline Fitness, yeah, the original name, yeah, yeah. So on with you, roundabout, that's where I started, did my level 3, and really from there it was just working gym floor, doing the classes, just getting to know the members. And then I think obviously from there bounced around a couple of gyms from Bradford, still working on the, you know, personal training side, but it was really when we started getting into lockdown, eventually with social media, started building an online brand, and I think I was just Almost forced to go online, and that was where the online coaching side came into it.

Callum: What do you mean forced? This is an interesting question because when you say forced, was that just because of the times, or do you feel like that were the smartest move? Josh: I'd say smartest move as well, but I think a business can only grow as well as your skill sets allow. Obviously, if I was going back right now, then yeah, there was probably ways I could go around it, but back then I didn't really know. know too much about business, and just because gyms have been taken away, the only other viable option seems to be working online. Callum: Yeah, I think COVID was a great time for people to take that step. But do you find now that's changed a bit? Because when the gyms opened back up and people had different outlets and could go back to the gym, did that change or was it still on the rise?

Josh: I think COVID was a good thing because it pushed a lot of- it pushed all coaches' backs right up against the wall. And I think that environment- I literally remember having a conversation, seeing the stories. You'd see coaches sinking, you'd see coaches rising out of it. I think when your back's up against the wall, the only way you have is to either adapt or grow with it. And that is when there'll be certain coaches that make it, certain coaches that don't. Yeah, so Callum: yeah, it's- it's- I always love the idea of it and people getting My biggest question, I'm sure it'll come up today, is when PTs are qualifying, is it the smartest thing to go online?

Josh: I don't think so, no. Um, especially with the online coaching space not being regulated, it opens up the doors to a lot of snake oil salesmen. I see it all the time. You'll see, you know, your average guy get in really good shape, he steps on stage by having a bodybuilding coach. He then becomes a coach. And before you know it, you've got this guy as an online coach and he's got 30-year-old Susan on a 1.8K calorie diet and then she's peaking to go to a 9-to-5 job. Miles: And is he just copying and pasting what his coach has given him? Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no, you know, aspect of the service delivery, tailoring it. Miles: It's just like blood and guts training. Josh: So I think, you know, being a personal trainer, just that reps in the game of working the gym floor is One of the best things that you can

Callum: do. Find out what you're actually good at as well. Because I think the copy and paste method, the ChatGPT method, even now with RetroTide that's on the market, a lot of trainers are using that in the background and posting these fantastic transformations and not being honest about it, saying, you know, they've achieved this in only 8 weeks. It's like, you're gonna see through smoke and mirrors eventually. But to people out there who don't know the game, it feels like it's almost Too good to be true.

Josh: Yeah. I think as well, the thing that is making a lot of PTs, coaches panic now with wondering where their next client is coming from is the actual market is so much more smaller. It used to be years ago, 2017, 2018, as a lead magnet, you could fling out a recipe book and you'd have 200 email subscribers just like that. Nowadays, you'd be surprised how many coaches struggle to sell something for free, let alone paid.

Miles: One thing I, you you can tell us your, your expert opinion on this, Josh. What I'm what I'm seeing is now is personal trainers not doing the authentic testimonials with clients anymore. Now, in a time when trust is lower than ever because of AI, because of people cheating with Retuxide, GLP meds to get the clients in shape, why do you think that clients aren't doing the old school Sitting down with a client, talking about the journey, how they started, where, with a real person. Why do you think people stopped doing that?

Josh: It's a good question. I think as well, part of that is down to everything being so accessible. I can literally open up that laptop, go on ChatGPT, and it will write me a business plan, it will write me content for the week. Everything is so accessible. So when we look at these old school video testimonials, sitting down with clients, It takes time. It takes time. And for you to post that film, edit that, and then see the returns from it, it can take weeks. Whereas a screenshot, a WhatsApp message, or something that you just found up on Canva, that can get you up in seconds.

Miles: Yeah. But again, like we're saying, this this speed thing with AI and everything else, if you're in the people business, which personal training, I still hope and I believe is, You've gotta build trust in the marketplace through genuine results with genuine people over a period of time. If you're just doing made-up screenshots and stuff like that- Do you think that's why a lot of PTs struggle? Because they're not doing the hard yards with their marketing. Josh: I think they struggle with that, but I think as well a lot of it is they're putting in little efforts but expecting- get a lot out of it. Yeah, it's almost like a basic math function machine. If you put in 2, you can't expect to get 4 back. Miles: It's just never gonna

Callum: happen. I think that's the problem though, right? Because we were saying this earlier, when you invite AI into your business, if you've already got substance, you're just trying to augment and make things run a little bit more smoothly. So again, with clients, maybe it's setting up something as simple as ManyChat. So when someone comments or said something, it's easier to get in contact. That bit I get. But when you're generating AI pictures, when you're trying to automate everything and put an AI bot doing this and that, but you've not even done the first success of making your business work yourself. Because only when it outgrows you should you look at really that upgrade. But if you've not had those wins yet, you can't prove the concept of what you're doing is working.

Miles: What would you do then? So as a new coach, newly qualified, if you were mentoring them to help them grow their business with their brand, their marketing, their social media, what would you take them through? Imagine just qualified today, what would you be sort of saying to us? First 3 things.

Josh: I can give you a real-time example of what we're working on. with BT Launch Lab, I've got like 3 or 4 calls booked in, one of which we've just done the exact same thing. So the first thing we're doing is always look at who you're actually delivering the service to. Now a lot of coaches, especially in this early stage that they're in, they think that the niche is a prison. They think that boxing their their client down is like, I can't say that because it's not relevant. The whole idea with who you deliver the service to, it is the root of the business. So let's just say If you don't understand, then you just you've got your qualifications, you just go out there, here I am, buy my services.

Josh: The problem with that is if you've got 500 followers and they all range from different age ranges, your content is not going to understand the conversations. So if you don't have an issue, you don't understand who you're delivering a service to, and you do a piece of content that is how to get to the gym early in the morning or how to wake up on time, that can't land because an 18-year-old, a 50-year-old, and a 90-year-old Which are all people on social media. They have different needs, different lifestyles, different circumstances. How can they connect to this content? So that goes back to you have to focus on who you deliver the service to. It doesn't necessarily have to be a person. Josh: It's if anything, it's more the pain point, because the pain point, you know, people can have.

Callum: When you talk about niche, this is a this is a question a lot of people ask, especially us. People find niching is, like you say, they're really narrowing down their audience. But there's so many different types of niches, right? You know, you see it very common online when people try to niche down. I want to work with busy busy men over 30 professionals. It's like, well, you're actually making that more broad than you think because then you've got a question who you think is professional. Yeah. You know, I want to work with mums and dads over 30. That's like 70% of the population. Like it's not a niche. Whereas when you're trying to try to find a new niche, how do you, how would you do it as a new coach? Callum: Because there's so many options. How do you relate it?

Josh: Absolutely. The thing that I'm big on is niche down on the problem and not the person. Because if you niche down on the person, which is busy men over 30 or an interesting one just to call out, it becomes Quite insulting is people will go for the busy professionals, men that are over 30 because they assume that they have money and they assume they can charge more because of it. You'll be surprised how much your average person, if you have a good service that actually produces results and it solves a pain point, people will pay money. People have money. But back to my original point, it's niching down on a problem, not a person. What happens if you say, I coach people aged 30 to 50 that like F1?

Josh: What if someone then comes to you and they're 29 years old? Are you just gonna be like, sorry mate, you're not 30 years old? Of course you're gonna coach them. Whereas if you focus on the pain point, you can be accessible to more people. It ticks the box of getting groundwork in with multiple people. You develop your people skills, communication, and you're still having a service that solves a specific problem. Because you're not- it's never- nobody wakes up and thinks, you know what, I want a personal trainer. You wake up and think, you know what, I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror. I want to be able to fit into a certain pair of jeans. Josh: I want to be able to go on holiday and be a better father. It's these problems, you're in the business of problem solving.

Callum: With your experience as a mentor, have you ever turned away potential coaches before? Josh: Absolutely. I think one of the best things is saying no to people and having tough conversations. The reason why I The reason I would personally turn someone away is one, their attitude to the programme itself. So one of the first things is somebody asks me how much it costs, I'm generally not gonna entertain that conversation. Or if I am, I hold my clients to a high standard because if they don't get the results or if they fail, it's gonna look bad on me. So if somebody is not prepared to do the work or if they're right off the bat looking for shortcuts, how long can you expect to get clients from this? What's the return?

Callum: Even in this age though, like, my only argument to that is people, it's the trust thing again, right? And you're doing the same job every personal trainer, coach, provider's doing. We're trying to establish trust. It's still always gonna come down to money. And obviously I know that you prove that by providing. But what traits What do you look for in your potential clients that you're going to raise as coaches that you would probably say, I don't think you're gonna make it?

Josh: I think it's because a lot of what I do is done-for-you consulting. So whenever I will teach you something, as long as it's not related to the coaching, I go ahead and do it. But when you learn a new piece of information, is new information learned, how quickly can I change your behaviour? So if I'm teaching you something, and a lot of coaches, a lot of general people who struggle to let their ego go because I've always done it this way and it's worked for me, but if it didn't work for you- so I think one of the things as well is I'll teach you stuff, but the implementation of it, the willingness just to let go of your old ideas and start thinking new ways would be a big

Callum: thing. Yeah, I get it, because the problem is I've turned learners away before, and I always look for something when I'm having a conversation with them. If I ask why you want to be a PT, If in within 3 word like sentences and 3 reasons, if it's not I want to help people, I know that they're not gonna do that well because that should be your first job. If your first thing is I want to go out there and make money, you're gonna struggle because the work comes in from you doing the hard rounds. I had a conversation with a potential earlier today. He already qualified but he wanted some mentorship and he asked me what am I doing because I qualified in January and I've got no clients.

Callum: Like, what are you doing now? Yeah. Says, well, I've had 3 potential clients, 1 ghosted me and 2 that I worked with just never got back to me. Says, well, what are you posting on social media? I've got a social media. Okay, are you posting? Not every day. Says, are you talking about it to people at work? Are you telling everybody about your business all the time? Are you asking people to come to the gym with you? Are you doing any free sessions? Like, the first year in PT I did, I must have done 60 hours free sessions. Just to build up that clientele, that testimonial graph. I think what people do is they go in with the money aspect.

Callum: If it's not worthwhile to them in the first 3 months, it's not gonna work. And that's that's what I mean with even your clients, your mentors that you're trying to bring through. Those traits will show pretty much straight away, right? Because they've been qualified for a while. And what they're doing now isn't working. They're not willing to Listen, there's a gap there.

Josh: I agree. Again, it's those old-school marketing techniques. One of the best things that I did when I was on the gym floor, 3 free, sits on a twister, 3 free PT sessions. Strip a piece of paper, you don't need any fancy systems. Name, email, contact number. Pin it up on the wall when they come in. You'll be booked out for weeks. It's just these simple things, but again, because it's like, well, I've gotta give something, I can't see that instant return straight away, I'm just not gonna do it. Because somebody either online has told me this or it just doesn't align. I don't think that's gonna give me a return. Sometimes what you think can run the business versus what actually will grow the business could be two very, very different things.

Josh: And you've got the coaches that will drop that there and then and they'll adapt and they'll pivot. You've also got the coaches that will be stiff, rigid. And if anything, I usually find it's the older coaches that are more resilient and they're open. These newer coaches, these new qualified PTs, they're so hungry, they're so willing to just do whatever it Callum: takes. Do you think that's because they're not willing to accept the new world that we're living in? Because it's vastly different from even 5 years ago. Like, it's not the same world. Like, there were things that you have to learn and be conscious of. Even social media now, you know, the way people are attacking it. It's more about volume and getting to the right person, right? But if people aren't willing to consider social media as one of their lead generation systems, they're gonna struggle.

Miles: Do you remember, you just went back to the the piece of paper analogy. And back in the late '90s when I started and got qualified as a PT, I remember A4 clipboard, piece of paper, speaking to people on the gym floor. What is he what is he what is What he what is he is it you're currently struggling with? And writing down and basically looking at what were the common pain points of members in the gym. Nowadays, a PT can actually do that. That's all your pieces of content for the week. What do people struggle with? But I still don't- I've just been to a gym before here and trained, and I was at 2 gyms in Cheshire on Friday.

Miles: And when I watch PTs in the gym, I'll see them hanging around reception. I still very rarely see them walking the floor and engaging, helping. What are you struggling with? If there's one thing I could give you, a magic wand to solve that problem, what would it be? Do you think that the art of speaking to people has has gone? Josh: 100%. Communication, because again, online coaching, you can- there's very successful coaches that will never see their clients in person. That person-to-person touchpoint engagement is completely obsolete when it comes to online coaching, which I think is a problem in the space.

Callum: Do you not feel like though your communication should be, if not double what you're doing on the gym floor anyway? Because we're living in an age now where some don't want to respond to text for 48 hours. As a coach, your relationship with your client is completely electronic, and you have to give them what they need, and you might not speak to them for a few days. Like on the gym floor, if you are seeing your client 3 times a week, you've got to report to the point where you're spending half of that session just catching up. But the online coach

Josh: hasn't got that time. It's very to the point, right? Yeah, it's just we've lost that relationship aspect, and it almost seems like You've gotta remember my entire business, a large part of it is helping online coaches and PTs. So it's not like we're taking this down the segue of saying online coaching is bad. But there is definitely a good, even like a USP to be had of just increasing that communication aspect.

Miles: The stuff that you would see in a personal trainer in a successful in-person business can absolutely be transferred online. Just, you know, instead of sending a WhatsApp message, just pick the phone and call them. Having weekly calls and set the expectation from the start. You'll learn more about a client in a 60-minute call than you will a week on dial with a phone, back and forth, or some messages. So you said number 1 is looking for the problem. The first thing. What would you say is the next thing?

Josh: The way that you can communicate that online. If you're trying to get clients online, you simply have to be where your audience is congregating. So it's one thing, right, you figured out who you're actually delivering the service to, but so far this idea just exists in your mind. And again, to get it out of your mind and be able to communicate that is a completely different conversation to begin with. Because then that opens up the door into what you're saying when it comes to your content, how you're posting that content. So the main thing now is being able to communicate that message. I've seen coaches where they've got a really good bio. They've got- I can land on their page and know exactly who they coach, but then I'll go through the content and it's still just the generic stuff.

Josh: So it's understanding the root of your business, but now you've gotta be able to communicate that to the rest of the Miles: world. So so basically when when I land on a PT's page, what you're saying, you should clearly be able to look through it and understand what they're about, who they help, and what problems they solve. That's that's basically what about number 3, what's the next thing?

Josh: Tell them what to do. The best way that I do this is when it comes to marketing is in a non-condescending and sort of way. Always treat your audience and your followers either like they're stupid, a 3-year-old, or completely from outer space. So if you do it, you'll be surprised how many PTs and coaches think, you know, they're sulking because they haven't got clients, they're stressed, they're in a period now where they haven't got clients. Clients come in, but they're not telling people what to do because they're running on assumption. "I've done the course, I've done the targeted stuff, I've figured out who I'm coaching, I understand what I'm doing." When was the last time you told them to actually do something?

Josh: If you've got something of free value, if you want to do an M B T, a call, a recipe book, a lead magnet, but tell them to actually download it. It is very much a relationship. Miles: Tell them the next step. Josh: Tell them the next step. Tell them what to do. You can't have We've all got misses, I assume. None of us are mind readers, right? It functions well when we either get them to tell us what they want us to do or vice versa. We don't assume. Callum: I don't know about yours, but mine gets mad when I ask her to tell me what to do. Josh: Yeah, because then you go- Callum: I ask for the direct solution, she just gets mad. Josh: Yeah, because why didn't you know what to do? Miles: You should know me by now. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Miles: Yeah, so tell them what to do is number 3. Another thing I wanted to ask you, Josh, is And this this is I think this is a big problem that I think a lot of PTs out there will align with is I I think and I think I might be not far off the mark with this. I think PTs are scared sometimes of putting content out there and they might think, "I can't say that, I can't post that," because they're scared of the opinions of others. And when I say others, What I mean by that is they're scared of what other coaches and trainers will comment on their post. But that is not their ideal client. Miles: So their opinion is is largely irrelevant. Now, do you see PTs who say, "I don't know what to- I daren't say that." Do you get that?

Josh: Absolutely, yeah. You see it as well sometimes the more qualified the coach is. So I know this coach, I won't name and glorify. He is a fantastic coach. He's invested thousands into his education, he's paid for mentors, and yet he's constantly starting from scratch. He's barely got any clients, he's always having to start from ground zero with his business. But yet if I look at his following and the stories that he's posting, he's posting to other coaches. This is where the root of the problem lies. You're creating content for other coaches and not for clients. There is a there's a razor sharp line as to how different it is. Because coaches, likes, comments, it's all just a monopoly in your mind that exists.

Josh: But we think that because we're in this little universe that everybody knows about it. But you'll be surprised how you talking about resistance profiles on the machine or the latest trend, we've got Jordan Peters that's back now, everybody's losing their mind over it. Yeah. But we assume again, assuming, because of It's not because of our ideas that just everybody knows it. So again, this idea of other coaches' opinions, one, it's an internal thing you've just gotta work on, and two, they don't pay the bills. Go try pay your mortgage or car payment with the other opinion of another coach.

Callum: I think it's easy to get caught in that trap though, because we're in an age of controversy now, where if you are a coach and then you see your role model coaches Blasting on other coaches and it's just a back and forth thing. 'Cause usually it's gotta be an unpopular opinion to go viral. Yeah. It's gotta be something being outlandish saying something. And I think the idea of going viral and getting clients obviously to be a good thing. But what would put a new PT off is now we're living in an age where if you see someone so deep into their content where they're posting 3, 4 times a day, it's more natural to them. I can understand why that coach would be reluctant to post because it's when they think they haven't got the ideas to put on there, they think it's irrelevant.

Callum: But I think everyone's like that. Like you say, they jump on trends and stuff like that. But the real coaches who are making real impacts, like you say, are not caring about having negative opinions. Because if you've got no enemies, you're not doing enough. But if you've got no haters, you're not doing it good enough. You've gotta go out there and say how how you view it, even if it's controversial. Miles: Hate hate never comes from above, does it? Callum: Yeah, you're always punching down.

Miles: It's always coming from below. So I I think coaches over the years that I've spoken to, even even gym owners who daren't say things. But it's like if you can solve a problem for your target audience in your target local area, What other gyms say about you is like it's irrelevant. You've gotta be able to put yourself out there in spite of the the opinions, the criticisms of others. How do you think a PT would get over that fear?

Josh: It's always, you're always a laughingstock until you actually pull it off. And again, you do all of this work and then all of a sudden it's like you're an overnight success. It's not about the bottle. It's the, you know, the looking like a little bit of a joke, maybe you're doing on trend or whatever it is, just simply being uncomfortable. Like me, I'm a very laid-back, reserved person. I'm part of my marketing strategy. I'll never be doing TikTok dances or anything like that, but if I've got something to say, I will say that. And sometimes that means doing maybe even like a live video. This is my first podcast that I've ever been on in a live environment.

Josh: So it's again going into those unknown things because you know- Which sounds obviously really cheesy, you know, you just got to do what makes you uncomfortable, but if there's truth in it, why not just action anyway? Miles: So exposure therapy, just keep doing it until it becomes less painful and it becomes more natural. Josh: Yeah, no one's tired of it. I've recently heard that. It's good when you- you know, it's painful when you're not getting clients. Nobody wants to send the emails, the outreach messages, following, doing the boring stuff. But the second you get, yeah, I have some money, let's get on call, and that actual yes, you're humbling.

Callum: Yeah, I think- yeah, I mean, I got told an interesting thing the other day. You've got a failing business until it's successful. Doesn't matter if you've got 3 clients, 2 clients, Until whatever you deem successful, which is a really important point. Like, what is your idea of success? Is your idea being financially free? Is your idea of having a brand? Is your idea- whatever that is, until you get that, it's a failing business. And a failing business is not a done and done business. You just work on it constantly. And I think what people are scared of is making failures, right? And having slip- Hiccups and stuff in business. You need to make those failures because they're gonna teach you a lesson and you're gonna learn something.

Callum: But we live in an age now where we just set it for- we turned it on about AI. They want to be there instantly. They want to be making money instantly. But if you're gonna zip forward and miss out all those critical lessons, what are you gonna do when you get to that point and the next hurdle comes? And you haven't learned the thing that you need to learn to be able to deal with it.

Josh: It's like ManyChat you touched on, and I have a personal- it's not like I have beef with it, but I'm definitely not a fan of the platform. You'll see a coach with like 7,000 followers, or even you'll see coaches and you know, a lot of influencers, wherever it comes from, a couple hundred thousand followers, and then they'll set up a ManyChat. In its place, in the right circumstance, for sure, if you've got hundreds of comments coming through, hundreds of messages. It has its place. But you'll see a coach with several thousand followers have a ManyChat automation in place when they do a callout saying, "DM me the word freebie," and 2 people say, "Why on earth would you need ManyChat for that?" The skill set that you need to learn from that is how do you actually send that first message?

Josh: It's email marketing, it's marketing. So what can you send in that first line of that DM to get someone to open that DM to begin with? If you're just jumping straight to that ManyChat because you assume that it works and it's what the other coaches, more followers than you, are doing, you're missing that vital step of yet again human interaction, which is sending that first message. Miles: If you don't know what that natural back and forwards is, your automations will never sound natural, will they? Because later on, if you've never actually done those automations over a period of time, back and forth, you kind of know the natural flow of a conversation. Whereas if you do an AI automation from the start with no experience, it just sounds fake, doesn't it?

Callum: And people are picking up on it fast now. I'm not seeing that as much anymore. And I think people are starting to sniff it out. I mean, uh, James Smith and a few other coaches do it, about the honesty, being upfront about it, saying, if you comment this, my ManyChat's gonna send you this, but it's gonna be valuable because it's a good book or it's a good PDF. Miles: It's not gonna be me at 3 o'clock in the morning within 2 seconds replying.

Callum: And I liked it because I think what we're missing out on key marketing things, and this is good for personal trainers to hear. I don't know if you agree, but being honest about your marketing, saying, you know, click this button, I'm gonna send you 3 emails, by that 3 emails you'll probably want to have a conversation, and they're gonna be in a chain, aren't they? Because everyone knows what an email is now, you know, you're going to pop, like, be honest about it because the clients that you try and speak to, as long as you're honest with them, I feel like there's gonna be some communication there.

Josh: It reminds me, and this is completely resourceful when it comes to coaches wanting to outreach and figure out how you send that first message, you know, coming to making the first move. But one of the biggest things that will help is addressing the elephant in the room. So when I'm speaking to a coach and this means to send the first message, or I'm getting my clients and I'm upskilling them If you're messaging someone that follows you, they've liked a couple of photos, you don't just want to be going in on like, "Hey bro, how's training?" One of the easiest opening lines I'll say in a voice note is, "Appreciate this sounds like a little bit like a spam message," or "I understand you probably get a lot of these messages." Just by addressing that, you're creating that common ground of you both know that it's two strangers talking to one another.

Miles: Yeah. That honestly helps create common ground. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. What do you see when you look at profiles of PTs and online coaches? What do you see as- you almost want to put your hands over your eyes and not look at them. What do you see that is common, what we would say mistakes or don't help people grow the business? What do you see people posting badly? Josh: I would say generic messaging is a thing I see all the time, but more so, more better than that is bios that sound like CVs. People think that when you become a personal trainer, and I see this a lot more that I'm starting to work with US clients as well, is they'll have just a list of credentials. They've done the bachelor's, the master's, level 2, level 3. Miles: Pre and postnatal.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I've worked a lot of sales jobs in the past, I've always got a Personal training and sales are very, very compatible things. One of the first things that you'll learn, page 3 of any sales book, is features versus benefits. Feature is what something does. The benefit is how it actually helps someone. And I think I'm always saying to coaches is, it's not that these qualifications are bad, it's time and a place and a way you play these little pieces within your business. The qualifications and what you've learned to become the coach that you are has no place being in your bio. You use us as patients to deliver the service. On your bio, it should be what problems do you solve? Josh: What do you what do you actually help people achieve and what should they do next? Miles: And what's the method and how you do it?

Josh: Exactly. Because another point on top of that is 20 years experience or 10 years experience. And again, this is you see this from again the older coaches. They think that right, well, I've been around 20 years, that must mean I know something. So yeah, again, we're back to the point of assumption. This is not me saying this, but again, those 20 years mean nothing if you spent it being a complete bozo and not doing anything to upskill yourself. Miles: What have you done in that 20 years? What's the evidence?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, those 20 years are absolutely invaluable, but show me what you've done in those 20 years. Have you solved- have you created a new system that perhaps no one has seen before? Have you worked with a new coach? Have you done something yourself? But that numeric value means absolutely nothing. Yet again, to the other coaches, again, these credentials, it's look at me, I have the more muscles because we know that I had to put 2K into that. I had to work extremely hard for that. So it's writing your bio, your online presence for other coaches or for the actual client or the person you want to help. Big difference. Miles: What about what about the PT who incessantly posts topless selfies and just pictures of themselves? What's your thoughts on that?

Josh: It's problematic. It used to again, it used to work, but the industry is changing. What we're talking about now, if we were to sit down and have this conversation a year later, completely different points will come up. There will be some bases that will be evergreen and will always work. And again, 2017, 2018, those earlier years when I was a PT, it used to work because our guys that we had were Steve Cook, we had the bodybuilders, we had gym shot look. So you post that type of photo to get your sponsorship up, it could start getting you clients, you could grow your YouTube channel. Nowadays, because people are smarter, they need more than just that person that's in good shape.

Josh: It creates this 'mightier than thou' approach where it puts you above your client and your followers, and it makes them feel like them working with you isn't obtaining. The Stoics faced it. I don't know if I know you're into your philosophy. So stoicism, a lot of stoic philosophers were often ostracised. They was um, I can't think of the word, told to go away. They were kicked out of their island basically because stoicism was deemed as too unobtainable for the average man. so to put that into modern day terms, your young guy that's posting a topless photo, your average guy that's got a 9-to-5 job, wife, kids, trains at 5 AM just because he can get time, he's not gonna think- Miles: It's not relatable, is it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the the the gap from where they are to that is too big. Too big,

Callum: yeah. Do you think that's the intention? Why, I mean, I think it's it were usually aimed at a bodybuilding community, right? It got quite niche and conditioning, but now, like you say, a lot of these kids are coming online and they're doing these topless photos. Inadvertently, they might turn into an influence. And usually an influencer with 20,000 followers doesn't even have 20,000 customers. And I think that's where it falls short. But I think this is where the generations are coming through and saying, I need a big following in order to gain these leads. When if you strip it back, that's all that's gonna get you. Does that make sense in terms of, like you were talking about the stoicism and the attracting and stuff like that?

Callum: What is the most integral part of what a PT should be doing? should be posting to start? If you've had a fresh PT today, what are the things that should be put in the industry? Josh: It's more so what they're saying and who that content is speaking to. So yet again, I will always call it the DCP because that's my own little framework that I've created, but that content should exist to speak to one person. So you should never be writing captions or putting up your videos with "many people struggle with this" or "that man over there struggles with it." It should be Do you struggle with this? Have you thought about doing it this way? And again, it's writing content to that one person that I think will make the biggest difference.

Callum: Do you think we've obviously we talk about AI in every episode. I think it's important because it's not going away, and I absolutely believe that you could implement AI into your business in some form. You know, shouldn't be taking over your entire business. It shouldn't be creating a business. for you, you should be creating that business. But in terms of AI, I imagine a lot of coaches ask you about automations, you know, what they're gonna do with it. What's your usual advice around that?

Josh: I think AI is almost a little bit like money. It just makes you more of what you already are. So if you're a lazy individual, someone that wants to put appointments, you're looking to get a lot from a little, having AI is only gonna make you worse at that. Your content's gonna become Instagram as well, if you're using ChatGPT to create your posts, it's gonna put it as an AI logo. It's even now started saying AI-generated profiles. So again, if you're in this space to use AI as a way to cut corners, and I don't even mean it as a negative thing because I also understand it as well. If you're busy, you're working 3 jobs, you've got a little one on the way, whatever that is, it's the thing that makes this dangerous.

Josh: Attractiveness to use AI. Because you've got- I can load up my laptop, figure out how to use Canva, drag and drop this place here, this text there, that's gonna take me 10-20 minutes. Or I can go to ChatGPT, it'll do it in 2 minutes. It's how attractive it is that makes it so difficult to move past. But again, it's that skin in the game, it's developing that skill set. If you're just jumping into AI straight away, you're never gonna know what it's like to create something that comes out.

Miles: Yeah. Let's take that a step further, Josh. Let's just say you're a PT. You've got 5 clients. You've got a couple of hundred followers. And you've got- let's just say you're still currently working a part-time job. You're looking to migrate across to full-time PT. If you've got 3, 4 hours a week for your marketing, how would you use that 3, 3, 4 hours, what would you create with it?

Josh: The majority of it would honestly be making the first move. I'd like to open this up to both of you, but for me, I found that there are 3 channels of getting clients. You can pay for them, but the problem with that, especially being a coach, if you're new to the game, you're gonna need a lot of ad spend, and there's no real return on what that's gonna bring. Not to say that ads are bad, but that's one of them. The other one is you can wait for them, which is You post content and you basically hope that if you post the right content and you do the right thing, somebody will find you. That will work and it can work, but it's not how you grow a legitimate business.

Josh: The third and final is you start making the first move. You've already touched on that multiple times back in what you do with the clipboard. You were walking the gym floor and making that first move. So if I had that 24 hours, I would if anything I would just bunch it up all together, wait until the end of the of day. the week or whenever that would be, and I would spend so much time making that first move. Because to have 300, 400 followers is seen as like a low follower account. Maybe it's just me being super optimistic, but I see that and I think that can literally- 5, 10 clients for your average coach is a completely different lifestyle.

Josh: Yeah. With the right price point and everything like that. So you don't need 1,000 followers because if you You are having conversations. 1,000 followers would take you weeks to get through. So again, my first and foremost is voice notes, things Miles: like Josh: that, right? Because this is where we can start going into the marketing side of, right, okay, Josh has said I need to go have conversations with people, so now I'm just going to copy and paste. Yeah, again, go to AI, get it to write me a message. Hey bro, how's training? What are you working on at the moment? I'm just gonna click and send that to 3,400 followers. So again, it's going to expose the people that just want to cut corners and tick the box, or you can start having voice notes.

Miles: Video using their name. Hey Susan, appreciate the follow this week. What's the one thing I can help you with?

Josh: You've always gotta think about what is it like on the other side. There's so many different strategies that will get taught that will work that other mentors have unfortunately said. Very easy one is, if you're wanting to increase your following, you go to another coach's page and start following all their followers. But again, if you look at that from the other side of the foot, what's it like from the client's side? They've just been followed by 5 different coaches, now you just sound like another coach. Again, if you're sending that same DM to every single person, you you sure you're ticking the box of sending DMs, but what's your actual response rate? The whole point, if you was to Send a DM to your missus and look at what it looks like on her phone.

Josh: Instagram is never gonna show that entire message. It's that first line. That really is where your focus wants to be. And when you start using things like voice notes, Loom videos, if you send them just as a standalone link, what you're basically doing is you're creating that ambiguity that creates curiosity. Whereas if you just go, "Hey bro," in that first line, or "Hey mate," uh, "Thanks for your follow," that's done. You just- They're just either going to ignore it or they're walking away.

Callum: It's usually gonna be like- my thing always was, it's gonna usually be the 4th, 5th, 6th interaction you're gonna have before they start getting wanting to have a conversation. Like it's getting in there, in their stratosphere, getting in their space and becoming a regular in their mind to the point where they might get curious. It's easier on a gym floor, like When I first started, my aim was I'm gonna ask everybody that I work with, I'm gonna ask everybody that I know to come for an hour to train them because the gym that I was at, people need to see you doing your job in order to create curiosity. It's the same thing, more people you message, more conversations you start.

Callum: And I don't know if you agree, but I never went down the route of asking for business first. It was always down the route of, how can I help you? And usually you might give the stuff away for free. Um if you you know if you hold your knowledge hostage, no one's gonna want to buy it. So if you help people first, they'll want to buy it back. But yeah, with the online coaching stuff, the one thing that I always got was always, you know, I've got 10 slots. I've only got 10 slots left. You know, grab it now if you want to change this and change that. Josh: Almost, it used to work and it really did used to be able to do that and you'd get those 10s that filtered. But then people are smarter Miles: now. It's now 3 and say, I'm looking for 3...

Callum: And then next week I'm back up to 4. Miles: I still see them now. It seems to have died off a little bit that, because I think about a year ago everything was, I'm looking for 3. Busy mums, busy busy men over 30. And now they seem to have died off. What are they posting now, those same people? Is there a current one that seems to be popular that I'm not seeing? Or have they all left the industry after 6 months of doing that?

Josh: So yeah, I think a lot of it is still the same old features of their coaching. If anything, their marketing strategy is very self-centered, self-absorbed, and focused on what you can get first. Yeah. Like the typical call to action for us now, which I do still see and I'm thinking about it, is tailor the training programme, weekly check-ins, nutrition and sports. The same thing every single time. Now if we look at any really successful to unsuccessful coaching business, the levers are the same. Every coach, good or bad, 10 clients or 1,000 clients, you're gonna be giving them the training programme, the check-in. So if there's If it's not that, what else is it? It's how you actually communicate those benefits.

Callum: Yeah, you can't reinvent the wheel. Absolutely. But it's again, this is this is the thing that I always hammer home to people is it's called personal training. It's you. It's not it's usually people are coming to you because they like you. It's not usually knowledge. Knowledge comes second. Like if you're a smart PT, great. But if you're a bland and boring PT, you're gonna struggle. You need to have something about you where people are attracted to you, because people buy from people. They always go into- they always will. And this is where the facade of the whole online coaching thing, where you can automate everything and just have a faceless business- everyone wants a faceless business, a faceless Instagram, you know.

Callum: That's where the trust issues are coming now. And people are still exchanging money for it. Everybody I see is building a brand new app saying it's my coaching app. You get your diet plans instantly, you get your workouts instantly, you get your results instantly, everything like that. Josh: But again, that only impresses other coaches or guys like me if I'm a mentor software. Callum: Yeah. Josh: It does nothing for your actual client. Um, it reminds me of that, it was Gary Vee, it was Jab, Jab, Right Hook. Have you seen the Odyssey movie? Fantastic movie. Miles: No, I've not seen it. Josh: I've not seen it. Really, really good movie. One of the best marketing stories. Callum: I'm halfway through the book. Josh: Do Callum: you know why? I wanted to watch the movie and I thought, I'm gonna be smart and read the book first. Josh: So I got it all.

Callum: And then I've not been able to go back to the book because it's so complicated after I watched Josh: the film. The film I've seen twice. The reason why I brought it up is you've got the Trojan Horse story. And I knew about the Trojan Horse long before I even knew what Odysseus was. And the idea with the Trojan Horse is you have, I'm going to butcher the explanation, but you have these two empires that were essentially at war, and they gave that Trojan horse as a piece of fruit, and they got into the the gates of Troy, they opened the door, and then when it was dark, they all came down and they basically massacred the village. So it's this idea of giving with one intention, but really your actual true intention is not revealed.

Josh: Yes. When it comes to the market, and that's slightly a Machiavellian way to explain it, but when it comes to your market and getting clients, it's give something for free, give something for free. Miles: With good intention. Josh: Exactly. It's not about what you can get by talking about the features and I've got this app and that app and you do this and I've transformed hundreds of other people's lives. It's here's what I can actually do for you. I understand what you're going through. I see your situation because either I've lived it or I have another client called Sarah and she's gone through the same thing. Here's what we're gonna do to get you into getting you in shape.

Miles: There is as well, if you go with a giving hand And you keep giving and giving and giving good content, good advice, good videos, good- whatever you- there is a law of reciprocity in the world. Yeah. And I think if you continuously put good out into the universe, good will come back to you. So like you said, if you go with a giving hand and you keep helping, you're pretty much gonna be okay. There's that old phrase, isn't there? If you help enough people get up, they They want, you will get what you want. Yeah. I think that that's a loose thought you're saying. Next question, Josh. If somebody's posting, putting out content on whatever format or all formats, and nothing's coming back—the likes, the comments, the engagement, the inquiries—how would you forensically look at that and figure out what the problem is?

Josh: I think it's a little bit like when you first lose something. The first thing that we do when we lose something is you retrace your steps. So for me, in my business and what I've built, is I'd always go back to DCP. Because the DCP is your entire route of your business, which is who you're delivering your service to. If there is a gap, more often than not there is, between who you're delivering a service to and how well your content can communicate that. Because as always it is, it's not like there's a magic formula. Content is just communication. grounds to create that first conversation. So more often than not, the reason why your content isn't working is because somewhere along the lines it stopped communicating to the person.

Josh: And the reason why that's it's such an easy mistake to make is because we get sloppy with your content, we post content just for the sake of doing it. So for me, I would always retrace it back towards your DCP and then start looking at is it actually providing any value.

Miles: And again, are you telling people Okay, so just summarising that. So I'm a I'm a I'm a PT. I've started or I'm not too far down the journey. I'm pumping out content. More is better. More is better. I'm doing that kind of- and then I look at it. I then look at I look at each post and think, well, what prob- I have to go back to what problem I'm trying to solve. How does that post talk to that problem and the people who would have that problem? That's the first thing, yeah? And then if I think, let's just say I think, yes, I am doing that, but it's still not hitting and it's still not getting anything back. Miles: What's the next thing in that funnel I would look at?

Josh: Start with just double down on it. So again, what we're really talking about is you opening up your phone and doing amazing content. We haven't even talked about stories yet. We haven't spoke about different platforms. We haven't talked about cross-platform posting. So sometimes as well, it's the system side of it as well. I genuinely believe this. I've got, you know, resources, data to prove it. Pretty much when it comes to Instagram, all of your clients' followers are gonna come from stories. Putting aside the standard stuff like referrals and whatnot, but stories. Your leads, your inquiries are factually always going to come from there. So again, if your content isn't converting, sure you're posting it to your main feed, but are you just posting it to your story and then ghosting?

Josh: Because it's all good us talking about how we build a business for personal trainers and getting more clients. We haven't even spoken about Instagram because that- whilst we have clients, we're clients of Instagram. So you've gotta put it by Instagram. Why stories? Why do you think? Because logistically it makes sense. If you open up your phone, what's the first thing you see? You see the stories at the top. The eyes follow. We've got that marketing principle, I can't remember the name. One, we don't read information, we scan it. And two, when you go to look at something, your eyes follow the shape of a Z. So first you go to the top left, then you scan across, then you come down, you scan across.

Josh: So stories are the first thing that you see. They tick the box of what the mind wants right now, which is content at a very, very fast period of time. Because I can just go click, click, click, click, and in 24 hours it's gone. And then I can I can see 10 people's lives in a matter of seconds. Stories allow us to do that. Callum: So great, so short and sweet. Josh: Short, very sweet. Miles: Straight into the action, straight into the action, yeah.

Josh: So, but To the point of, if we're if we're posting content and we're not seeing that, you'll be surprised how many times you're yet again doing it for yourself. You've done the post, you've done the call to action, why you haven't been to class. But hang on, you haven't shown up for Instagram by doing these stories, by keeping people on the platform for long. You haven't shown up for your clients. You basically just shown up and said, I'm a coach, or here's a few tips.

Miles: So again, it's how you show up for Instagram and where you actually put yourself. You know the the old marketing where it said, was it 11/7/4? They've gotta consume like 11 hours of your content, at least 7 pieces across 4 platforms. There's some marketing gurus say that. How much content do you think somebody has to consume before before they're ready to go, "Help me, take my money."

Josh: I honestly don't have an answer to that, but much like anything, more than what you think you know. If you're listening to this, watching this, and you think you've got an answer to that, one, let me know, but two, it's more than what you already think you know. So whatever you're doing, just do more of it. And also as well, we've gotta talk about barrier to entry. So when it comes to your stories, you're telling people about your service, it's not just a case of You do a main feed post, you could reshare the story, and then on the next one you've got a bit of text and say, you know, DM me the word info for, you know, to start approaching.

Josh: There's features within stories, features within Instagram that you will get rewarded for using. Stickers, quotes. I see people where they'll do the reshare to the story, DM to start, never happens. But what you can do is you can use that. I have an actual framework of how to actually nail. Because 90% of coaches will post and ghost. Post it and then move on to the next platform and they're gonna wake up and think they're gonna get clients. They get a shot to another client, so they go boom. Whereas you can actually use one post and string out 3 to 5 stories that take that message and basically dilute it into 5 different stories. So you've done the main feed post, the simple framework, main feed post, ask them a question if they struggle with it.

Josh: Use some social proof to expand your point, then ask them a question about what they're struggling with, and then you do a CTA, which would be a sticker. Callum: What's more important with the content? Because there's a lot of great framework there, and I always ask everybody this who's really into their content creation: is it the quality or is it the quantity?

Josh: Quality matters, but also the quantity. to kind of open up the door into just doing it for the sake of it. So again, I know it's not the answer you or people probably hoping, but there is a middle ground to the both of them. We live in a position now where ugly content, I call it ugly content, it needs to be studied because it's such a winning formula. James Smith was talking about it. You see people all the time. Your content where it's just you in the car will outperform all of this hyper-polished stuff. You've got a camera setup, mics, editors, which is a good thing because now the barrier to entry to creating content is now non-existent because anyone can do it.

Josh: But if you're just doing it for the sake of it and again just flinging it out with no real strategy, then it's also gonna be a losing thing as well. Callum: Yeah, because again, the ugly content that you're talking about, I find that, you know, the winning ones that tend to get engagement are the overlay videos where you've got You've got a video playing in the background, you've got the person talking. And that stuff like that is really easy to do. And you can pretty much do that on a daily basis. And people are doing the 365 challenge where they're posting a piece of content every day. This is where I'm talking about volume. Because a lot of people look for how many posts and followers have you got in contrast on your page. If you've got 500 followers and you've got 30 posts, there's a problem, right? Callum: Absolutely. Miles: Yeah.

Josh: I think we can always post more. It used to be that you could just post 2, 3 times a week and you'd get clients from that. But the majority of coaches, regardless of how intense it sounds, are simply not working hard enough. And I mean that from an output level, but I also mean from a hard work standpoint as well. Now, part of my call and outreach strategy, my entry point to coaches working with me is I will always help them out by sending them almost like an audit of their profile. That's my step one. Look at their profile, look at the bio, done what we've gone through. Then what I'll do is I've got a DCP worksheet, which is like a smaller version of what I work with my clients.

Josh: I'll send them out and be like, you need to go ahead and work on it because the page is missing. I have maybe 90% approaches where I'll send home follow-up and 2 weeks later they still haven't done anything. So again, a lot of it is you're being given sometimes the recipe, you know what to do, but you've just gotta go ahead and do the work.

Miles: What's that phrase, isn't it? You know, talent beats hard work. No, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work. So, right, so let's let's take it a stage further, Josh, right? So let's just imagine now, we've got to who I help. I'm a PT. I've been Qualified 3 months, we've gone through the process, we've nailed down who who I'm talking to. And let's just say I'm talking to people with the problem that are massively time pressured, for example, fearful of the gym, don't like the gym, they might have yo-yoed in and out of the gym before, and they re- getting them to be consistent, whether it's Online or in person, if I'm trying to speak to that problem or the the people with that problem across a week, what kind of things would you be putting out there or telling me to post?

Josh: I would be- it's we've got the prospect level, right? So let's just say if you've got 1,000 followers, right? Not all followers are made equal because most coaches, the problem that they make, they're content is, they're only gonna be speaking to that 10% of your audience. So the prospect ladder goes as: you've got people that are not problem aware, you've got people that are problem aware, you've got people that are problem aware and browsing the market, and then you've got the smallest segment of your audience that are cashing in and ready to buy. This is generally gonna be about 10% of your audience. Where your focus wants to be with your content, the way that you're communicating stuff you want to talk about, wants to be for the people that are not problem aware.

Josh: The reason why, and this goes back to just basic Basic human needs and how we are as people. If I have a problem, I want to get it solved. If I break my arm, the first thing I'm doing is going to the hospital. If my car breaks down, the first thing I'm doing is going to a garage. Now once you've got people problem aware, alarm bells are gonna start ringing. They want a solution to it. Then what you want to start doing is talk about your business. You talk about the USPs, what makes you different. This prospect line is almost like an interchangeable thing. You try to move them into- And if you have 1,000 or 100 followers, they all sit at different stages.

Josh: So your content strategy has to almost be- it's like a chameleon. It's gotta have different layers to it. You've gotta be multifaceted in how well you communicate with your audience. Callum: So nurture, trying to nurture that Miles: then. So yes, so some of the content I'm gonna post then is gonna be trying to move people down that ladder so they're problem aware, ready to, and ready to solve.

Josh: And a lot of how you do that is challenging their beliefs. You can't help someone if they don't want to be helped. So if your content strategy is banal coaching, no one is going to buy it if they don't believe that they need to change to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. So your content has to make them aware that they have a problem, not by saying, you know, you're fat, you're obese, or anything like that, but just- you can, if you're, if you're- because I can say what I want. I'll be fine, just no filter whatsoever. There are a lot of coaches, and I get it, where they are for it to be uh you know be outlandish and say the bold thing.

Josh: Sometimes use your client as an example. So if you're wanting to make someone problem aware, my client John, he used to struggle taking his top off. So what we did was we worked with him on his confidence. We started waking him up earlier. He got changed in the dark, whatever that is. And then before you know it, you tell Someone else is gonna see that and think, hang on a minute, I feel like John as well. So now I should actually pay attention because I too have that same problem. Now I can see that problem and I don't like it. It's like if you tell me I've got something in my teeth now, the rest of this podcast I'm gonna be worrying everyone's gonna see it.

Josh: Yeah. Let's say I'm gonna do is go brush my teeth for some other half of this. So it's about making people uh making people a problem with that. Callum: Yeah, the form of self-awareness. content, you're getting them to go away and think about it. Because usually the snapshot content, you know, here's 3 diet tips, not relevant, right? But here's 3 reasons why you're currently struggling in your journey. Oh, okay. Because even if it's not the right post, it's gonna say something to someone. And you're, I imagine your directive is every time you post something, it's to help Even if it's just marginal, just a small piece.

Miles: Are you doing a lot of it via story? Are you telling stories? Or like, my client John, he did this, or, you know, my my client Susan, she had this problem. If you are you are you telling stories? How are you how are you doing it?

Josh: Stories are part of it, yes, but stories are really there just as a if you don't The best way for me is create content to one person, as if you're speaking to one single person. We always talk about going viral and having all these views and followers, but we rarely talk about- for you to have 1,000 views, that's not 1,000 people. That is 1,000 individual people all sat in their own little universe, their own world, where they've got their phone up simultaneously viewing your content. So it's not 1,000 people, plural. 1,000 different individual people. It's a terrible way of putting it, but you really want to communicate your points as if, "Have you ever struggled with this?" You as an individual.

Josh: That's what you really want to be talking to. So the best way is, "You may be doing this, but it's it's leading you down this road. This is what you need to do instead." It's that simple change in narrative. Miles: Cool. So that kind of post, you would say, is the should be the bulk of what you do? And then what call to action stuff from off the back of it as well. So you're doing some jabs, some right hooks, and some-

Josh: Yeah. Okay. But this is where it can open up like there's so many different elements of what a winning business is, right? Because we're talking now about the granular thing of what a good post is. The CTA is another conversation in and of itself because you'll get people where they They'll do everything I'm saying, they've done all of that, and then they go and bottle it at the last hurdle. CTAs, stuff like that, right? DM in the word coach if you want more info. They've done all that really good work and then they just throw it all down the drain because they get lazy. Or they don't know no better, which can also be a big problem. Miles: So they've got them warmed up, ready to give you money, but then say, right, here's the next step, let's chat now.

Josh: Or more so, well, what I really meant was the CTAs are not black and white. They don't just come Straight out of the box, the best CTAs are almost like ninja CTAs, is what I recently learned. The CTA always wants to be relevant to the post. So if I do use AI to give me a better structure on the content idea, which is what I do genuinely do, one of the things in my prompt writing is make the CTA relevant to the post itself. It should never be a really good target for speaking to one person and then DM the book, because it just makes no sense. It more so wants to be If this hit home, or if you are someone who struggles with this, reach out and let's have a conversation.

Josh: Because that's where all roads lead to, is always gonna be that conversation. Your content isn't there to sell, it's just there to create some form of common ground between one stranger and another. Callum: So you're essentially just trying to- each post is to create a connection. Absolutely. And it's like the interaction side, you know, how many iterations of that before someone goes yes.

Josh: And it's always more than what you You're never just gonna have one winning post because a week later- it's like travel reels. Travel reels are absolutely fantastic right now, but in a year to come, they're not gonna be a thing. Because Instagram, these platforms are businesses. They're always competing with each other. We're just little pawns on the chessboard. We've just gotta do whatever they say. It used to be, you know, IGTV was Instagram's response to YouTube, and it had to be- it had to be doing long-form content. But it's looking to come back because people want longer form, more authentic content. So it's it's about being a moving piece on that chessboard. You've always gotta be looking at what's working and be very, very quick to change, pivot, and just adapt yourself.

Miles: I think I think everyone will have got a lot from that. Is there any other any other things you want to add, Josh, on this podcast before we wrap up? Is there anything else you want to cover?

Josh: Yeah, one last thing for me is going to be almost like I say CTA, but barrier to entry is the biggest buzzword and perhaps one of the best things you can take away from this. When it comes to- this is why I'm so big on making the first move, right? When you understand everything and you put everything from this course together, you're going to be left with understanding who you want to talk to, who you want to deliver the service to, and how you communicate that. Maybe it's just me being I don't talk to no one about nothing. I just, I don't do it. I don't even talk to my missus, right? So when you're saying DM me the word, and you've just spoken about a man's dreams taking his top off, why on earth am I gonna go into a stranger's DMs and just offload all of my life problems?

Josh: It's not gonna happen. So this whole DM me the word, do all of this after a deep emotional post that you've just done, or even a generic post, it's not gonna happen. Whereas if you can be the one to make that first move and say, "Hey mate, I saw that you liked my post tonight on my client John who had a really good holiday in South Africa. Have you got any holidays coming up?" That first opening message doesn't even have to be something about training. It's just it can be something like, "We've got a cookbook," or something like that. When I'm talking about stories, because I'm so skilled in stories and what to post, simply posting A photo of those flowers or a can of Mew tonic.

Josh: I've had people that have, as I have a Mew tonic and somebody replied to the story, that led into a fruitful conversation that opened up the door to an opportunity. And all I've done is post a can of Mew tonic. So again, it's learn to make that first move and make yourself as accessible as possible. The lower that barrier to entry is, the more easy it is gonna be for somebody to want to work with you. Miles: Lower the curtain of just being a business. Yeah, exactly. Just be a person, because it's people dealing with people. Which is right back where we started this. So for people not lucky enough to work with you through ourselves, for people who want to follow you, know more about you, where should they go to learn more about what you do?

Josh: Main thing is gonna be Instagram. That's where most of my stuff is. Um, so I'm saying Josh Roberts is gonna be. But I think the next goal for me is starting to get into longer phone calls. I absolutely love podcasts. I used to have a podcast myself. So Instagram is where you'll always find me. Um, but obviously we was working together with PT Launch Labs. The idea is our business is about- I'm sort of like a systems guy. I'll help you work your social media. The PT Launch Lab is there to- sounds cheesy, but make coaching great again. I think I- Callum: Yeah, Rach Coating. Miles: Rach Coating, yeah. Perfect. Callum: That's where the hats start coming in. Miles: We'll put obviously all the links in in in in underneath this video, Josh. Thanks for coming on today, Josh. Callum: Really appreciate it. Miles: And I'm sure we'll have round 2 very soon.

Callum: Yeah, fantastic. Good to meet you again. Top man. Cheers, buddy. Thanks, everybody.