Personal Trainer Red Flags: What Bad Trainers Get Wrong

Miles: So, welcome to another episode of the PT Launch Lab podcast. Today's guest, I'm excited to announce, is Charles Townend. Charles is a successful current PT who's on the floor, in the trenches, doing it day in, day out at a quality gym, Graft House in Leeds. Charles: Graft House in Kirkstall in Leeds, yeah, really great facility. Miles: So I've known Charles a long time. He was a member of one of my gyms many moons ago, and I'm interested for him to tell his story of his journey and to tell us what's really going on 2026. Not what is the smoke and mirrors version, what's the real version of PT on the floor in 2026. So, Charles, tell us a bit about yourself and your journey into PT.

Charles: So, I fell into PT, it was a bit of an accident actually. Um, like most guys, member of a gym for absolutely ages, and um, I ended up having I had a stroke. Uh, I was in really shit shape. You know, we all think- I was that guy who'd go around the gym and I would give people advice. I'd red flags. Oh, you should be doing this, you should be doing this. I'm stood there, I couldn't see my toes. But, you know, trying to give advice thinking I was I was brilliant. Um, I had a stroke, I was 39, and then I hired an online coach. That guy got me into great shape and I started getting some- I started to get noticed on there, then people said to me, why don't you enter a bodybuilding competition?

Charles: Which I did. It was the Miami Pro World Championships. Came 5th in that, and from then I had more of a platform to start giving people advice. Yeah. Then I took my PT qualifications. Unfortunately, I lost my job. And that's when I became a PT at MPfit. Miles: So realistically, the world the world forced you into this career? Charles: Yeah, yeah. Miles: Synchronicity, yeah? Charles: Best thing that could have happened, I think. At the time you think, oh, absolute disaster, but it moulds you. Becoming a PT, it it makes you a better person, and I'll go through that as we chat. Miles: On your journey. Okay, okay. So when you started as a PT, what year was that, do you remember? Charles: About 2016. Miles: Oh, so we're 10 years in then? Charles: Yeah.

Miles: So you've got 10 years of experience you can pull upon on this podcast, so you're not the virgin sex therapist that I've said on another- Charles: No, no, no. Miles: So yeah, so you've got your 10 years experience, you've got your your your your Blue Peter badge for that. Callum: That was my favourite line you ever said. Miles: Yeah, I quite like that one, I quite like that one, yeah. Charles: I'll have to come up with some classics Miles: on Callum: this one. I'm not Miles: up to it right now. So, so, 10 years now, if you were to look at your 10-year journey and we fast forward to 2026, what do you think is the health and the state of the PT industry in 2026?

Charles: It's easy to become a PT. There are probably more PTs than ever, and I would say there are more underqualified, underprepared PTs. That is what I see now. But throughout my entire journey, there's always been a few bad apples. And you look around the gym as a PT and you see these and you think, what are they doing? Um, I think now, PTs are almost the bottom feeders of the health industry. We are taken advantage of massively by people selling us courses. So buy 'em high, sell 'em cheap, you know, kind of thing. It's you know £3,000 for a PT and suddenly, oh, you can earn £50 an hour. So that attracts a certain type of person.

Charles: And we are just, you know, from a from my point of view, we are treated really badly, and that reflects in the quality of the work that we put out. You know, the guys who are the guys who are PTs nowadays, they see these quick courses, become a PT in 8 weeks. Wow, brilliant, what can you learn in 8 weeks? Nothing really. And they're those people that go onto the gym floor, and we should be the first line of health professionals. Callum: I agree.

Charles: But we're not. You know, you look at you've got the state of the NHS and You know, if you've got an obese person or someone like that coming into a a a a a surgery, they should be given the option, right, you can either wait 12 months for a dietitian or we've got we've got 25 PTs here that we approve of, you can go see one of them 3 times a week. That would mean the PTs would have to up their skills to get on that list, and so it would probably shake out the bad ones. And there are an absolute shedload. the bad ones. I see it all the time. Callum: What do you consider a bad PT?

Charles: Right, so why is- you've gotta look at value for money and what you are being paid for, I think. You are being paid to change someone's life, and it's not it's not cheap nowadays. Someone could be paying you like, say, £60 an hour, right? Every minute is a pound, yeah? For that pound, I want To take my client through a journey, I want them to come in, they're overweight, they can't move, you know, they're frightened of the gym, and I want to say to them in a distinct timescale, in 8 weeks' time you will have lost 3 kilos, you will have lost 4 kilos, you'll be able to move. And to do that you need a plan. Charles: And the number of times I see PTs walking around a gym, no plan, making stuff up- Miles: Looking for a machine that's available.

Charles: Yeah, and I've even seen PTs I've seen PTs about to demonstrate an exercise, get down on the floor to demonstrate it, realise the exercise he's just made up on the spur of the moment doesn't work, and stand back up again and show them some stuff. A person is paying you for a for a result, and for any result you need a plan. And I always say to my clients, if you go to a gym and your personal trainer hasn't got a plan, sack him straight away. That's what I'm paying for. You're not paying for an hour of my time, you're paying for my expertise to take you from this to this. And if I haven't got a plan, sack me.

Callum: Yeah, there's two trains of thought with that. This is just my general thesis on this. A good PT- I mean, this is how I do it. I don't consider myself a good PT because that's a label. Charles: But Callum: also, when I have- I have a selection of exercise and variations of exercise. Every time I go into a session, if it's not on paper, it's not a plan. But I know that client's gonna do that day. I've got a recording method of that. So say for instance, again, Miles, when you're talking about picking a machine, if I go to do a squat with a client and the squat rack's busy, I might change it for a goblet squat. Charles: Totally agree. Callum: Yeah. Miles: When the pattern of movement's the same. Charles: Yeah. So you know, squat, hinge, push, pull. Miles: Yeah.

Charles: I totally get that. However, I want to, you know, if I if I go into the gym and I see people, they're the same PT, over and over again, never having any idea. Callum: Like substance and structure.

Charles: And they don't know, you know, what they did last week, what they're gonna do next week. You know, say someone's got 8 clients and each client performs 6, 7 exercises an exercise. You're telling me that client's remembered what they lifted last week, how many reps, how many sets? I don't believe that, because if he was that clever, he wouldn't be a PT. Um, you know, I just find that you need a plan. Um, and and skill set, skill set. One of the one of the my favourite ones is when I've seen a PT's bio, uh fat loss coach, uh fat loss expert, and then they haven't done one nutrition qualification, and you think, well, fat loss is all about a calorie deficit and the psychology of food.

Charles: You're claiming to be a fat loss coach and have done not- you've done nothing since your PT exams to to move your knowledge on. Yeah. And you know, knowledge moves on all the time. You know, we've got new studies, new exercise techniques, and I think, you know, if you've done your PT qualification 10 years ago and haven't done anything since, should you really still be a PT? Because people are asking, you are expecting people to invest in you, so why aren't you investing in yourself? Yourself. You know, why aren't you progressing? Because, you know, somebody, if someone wants to come to you, it's like buying a new car. You want the latest model. If someone wants to come to my gym, they want the latest model.

Charles: model of me, what do you know, what have you learned this week? You've gotta be on the cutting edge. Now, I'm not the world's greatest biomechanics expert, but when it comes to nutrition, my nutrition courses, became a level 5, I've got a level 5 diploma in advanced nutritional science, so and that's cost me about 6,000 quid, because I know that's important to my clients and where they want to be. Yeah. You know, and I do see guys coming in, 18, 19, 20 years old, just interested in flexing the biceps in front of the mirror and showing off to women.

Callum: I mean, ironically, obviously me and Miles are big on investing in yourself as a trainer because we run a provider, but so it's ironic to say, but the aftercare of a personal trainer is a big thing as well. I feel like sometimes they get left to their own devices, whereas the education side is you need to keep going because you're entering a pool of people in this business. And people say PT's saturated. It is, but every business is saturated. The ones that shine through are the ones who are willing to push a little bit further and explore a little bit more, because it can open up doors, right? And personal training, that certificate can mean anything.

Callum: Me personally, it got me into education, you know. It can get people to being gym owners, it can be online coaching, it can be people building systems for it. There's so many avenues where you can go down. But if personal training is what you want to do, you need to try and bring yourself to the best level.

Charles: But again, like I said, the the opportunities- through my nutrition qualification, I now give talks in in businesses, so you know, talk about how to improve the health of the staff, etc. And that's a nice element to it, because if you really want to help people, that's one of the best ways to do it, by standing there giving advice. When you see, when I spoke about a bad PT, when you're about, you know, I want to help people, well, go be in nurse for 6 months because I don't believe you want to help people. You know, help people is a is a really broad statement to make, especially if you're an 18, 19, 20-year-old. You can't even help yourself.

Charles: And that's not me being disrespectful, but what are you bringing to the table to a 35-year-old bloke who runs a business, a 40-year-old with 2 kids? You're not bringing much into that. You've got the qualification to say, I can I can do some bicep curls. But life experience-wise, you've got nothing to offer. I think as a PT, because I was I was talking to Josh earlier on and I said there should be a minimum age requirement almost. Callum: I Charles: can see like, oh no, because maybe not, but you I wouldn't take advice from an 18-year-old on how to do something.

Callum: But if the intention's there, I mean, you're gonna anybody that starts the journey early and they have the intention helping people, which I have met quite a few candidates who do this, is it not they need those milestones of potential failure, which unfortunately some clients are going to suffer that, but they need those to either grow or break? Charles: I still think everyone needs life experience. Callum: Yeah. Charles: You know, it's it's very difficult to advise someone how, you know, to make changes to their life if you haven't made changes to your own. You know, how can you say, oh, like, I'm an expert fat loss coach if I haven't lost a bit of fat?

Miles: What about looking at this another way? We we we think spin the whole thing on its head. So there's there's there's the age in isolation, but there's the walking a mile in someone's shoes in isolation. Because somebody could be, for example, 21, But has done a dramatic body transformation. They might not have the age, but they've they've done the journey. Charles: Yeah. Well, yeah, I do agree with that. Um, I do think if you're coaching something, regardless of the age, you do need to have done it. Miles: Yeah. Charles: And you need to have done it uh well. Callum: Back what you say.

Charles: Um, because you know, I've you know, I've I've gone from being overweight to a I ended up winning a Mr. Universe title, right? So I know how to build an elite physique, so I can I can coach that. But I can't coach some well I have coached going to a high rocks, but not to a high level because I've never done one and it's not my thing. But if you you have to have done what you claim you can coach doing, I believe. Miles: I agree with that.

Charles: But you know, that could come with life experience as well. So if if I'm teaching a 35-year-old The circles merge. Yeah, if I teach a 35-year-old guy to lose weight, I've also gotta be able to think, ah, as a 35-year-old guy, I've got 2 kids, I've got a wife who's not gonna want to be in every weekend when I want to be eating chicken and rice, she's gonna want to go out. You've gotta be able to to marry those. I think the personal training qualification, the ones I did, are very A, B, black, white. Miles: Yeah, like a driving test. Yeah, teaches you the bare basics of driving. Charles: I'm glad you said that because just because you've got a driving licence doesn't mean you should be on the road. Callum: I love that quote! I say it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Charles: yeah. Just because you've just because you've qualified as a PT does not mean you should be on the road. Callum: Say it all the time. Absolutely, I agree with that. No, no, no, that's fantastic. I feel like you just read my mind. Miles: Yeah, we we we talk about that a lot. Yeah, we talk about that a lot. Charles: Yeah, but you see it all the time. Miles: Yes, yeah, you think, how was that person even on the road? Charles: Yeah. Miles: But technically they've passed The driving test. Charles: You know, the same in gyms again, on about poor PTs. I've seen PTs actually physically join in with a client's session. Yeah. And I'm thinking- Miles: While eating Tupperware. Charles: I was gonna mention, I was gonna- Miles: Let's not go there, let's not go there, let's not go there. Callum: We like to talk about specific things. Miles: Let's not go there.

Charles: Well, I I I've seen that, people shuffling off to the kitchen to grab grab their breakfast and eat eat the breakfast whilst someone's doing burpees. Miles: Back turned going, "2 more, 2 more," eating out of Tupperware, doing this. Charles: You know this, you know, again, someone's paying you money for that hour. Miles: Yeah. Charles: And your attention should be on them. Callum: Yeah. Miles: I go around gyms all over the country. I've been around, every week I go to different gyms, and when I'm in a gym, I'm always looking at what's the PTs doing, what's the staff doing, what's the standards, what, I'm looking at everything, observing everything. And the amount of times I see PTs Either not engaged, not watching every mechanic, every the tempo, everything about the rep, and just, "Yeah, 2 more." Charles: Hands in pockets. Miles: Hands in pockets, arms folded, not writing down, not tracking.

Charles: I'm old school, pen and pad. Miles: I'm pen and pad. I know some people use iPads and phones, but some of the PTs I see with phones, I genuinely think it's Tinder. I don't think they're tracking the session because they're not looking at what the client's doing and they're almost just WhatsApping or doing- Charles: Yeah. Miles: And the standard of that, that is that is the one thing that still is my pet peeve. Like you said, when you're with that client and you're not with the client, you're not engaged, you're not living and breathing the rep, the session, and you're on your phone or just looking around. Charles: Looking around, I can't be bothered with this. I really can't, yeah, I see that quite often.

Miles: I would I would say if you were somebody looking at picking a PT in a gym, whatever gym in the country or the world you're in, if you're on the treadmill watching somebody delivering a session, I would say when you said when we said what's what is a bad PT, that for me is number 1. Not engaged, not paying attention, not watching, not coaching, not being enthusiastic. Charles: Yeah, that is that is the enthusiasm thing. It's like, oh, I just can't, why am I even here today? Callum: Yeah. Charles: And you think, it's almost like some coaches, I used this phrase earlier on, are stealing a living. Yeah, no, it's true. I wouldn't even say the coaches, you know, they are just rep counters. Miles: Rent-a-friend.

Charles: Yeah, you know, as well as that, you know, rent-a-friend does come into it, but you're looking, you think, wow, they are paying you, you know, 30, 40 quid for that. It's quite a highly paid service. service, and maybe you're not delivering what you should be doing.

Callum: Yeah, I mean, it's a problem because, like driving licences, they give PT certificates out all the time, and it doesn't come with the preference that- what you said before about PT should have been at the front line of health. And there's a lot of responsibility with this, and I do this every time I'm assessing a client and I look at the programme that they had submitted to me. If the first thing it says on it is a deadlift I want to have a conversation to make sure they understand the deadlift. Because these exercises can be dangerous. You're putting someone in vulnerable positions, and if you don't know what you're doing but you've seen it online, I can't trust you to do that.

Callum: And I'm not taking away from anyone's intelligence. I'm saying I've been there myself, but I've hurt myself on these exercises. There's a lot of responsibility. If you're not paying attention, if you're not present, if you're not doing it, if you've not got a reason for doing it. There's a lot of potential risk that they're gonna leave way worse than they came in. And yeah, it's, it's a pet peeve, but I can also understand why they're doing it, because no one's saying to them, you need to do better than this. Because from the outside in, PT looks attractive. If you're someone who loves the gym and you're there all the time, and someone says to you, why don't you just start training people, make some money out Charles: of it? Yeah, yeah.

Callum: It's like, oh yeah, it's a lightbulb moment, everyone's gonna be Queuing outside the door because Johnny Big Biceps is in the gym all the time. It's like, yeah, everyone's gonna listen to me. And then you realise pretty suddenly there's a lot more to it than looking great. It's also being able to talk to people, understand people, emotionally connect with people. You know, like we said, half the time it's about being a therapist and half the time it's about connecting with people. You might spend a full hour and a half session doing 3 exercises. Charles: I I did that today. Callum: Yeah. Charles: Literally an hour and a half with someone just chatting about the business. And that's fine. But I I I said to someone else again today- I did a lot of talking about this today, didn't I? Callum: A lot of prep.

Charles: Yeah. Can you tell? Lily's shaking away in the corner. I I want my client to leave the gym feeling better than when they walked in. That doesn't necessarily mean, you know, they can lift any more weight. I just want them to feel better. You know, they they might leave the gym and I'll be thinking, "Every single lift you did today was worse than last time." Right? I'm not gonna tell them that. They you know, how because when as we finish the last exercise, I will say to them, "How do you feel?" "Brilliant, I feel better than I walked in." That's all I need to hear. Yes, I know you've done everything correctly, you haven't injured yourself, we've talked about some food, you know, we've pointed out, "Oh, you actually got a bit stronger on that exercise, have you noticed?" "Oh, that's brilliant, yeah, I feel a lot stronger now." Yeah.

Charles: But as long as- my demographic is menopausal women, so they're not after, you know, chasing big biceps and huge squat numbers. They just want to stop falling over and look better naked, right? If I'm pushing them on that road, because you know it's gonna take longer than a younger person, that's fine. But be aware of what you're selling. Callum: Yeah. Charles: And sell it well. Miles: So how do you- so that's your- that's your demographic now. Charles: Yeah. Miles: Yeah. How do you manage expectations of that that client category? Because like you said, that can be that coaching that client category can come with challenges, because results might not be as fast.

Charles: Well, they're not as fast, but also they're not as apparent. You know, they're not as they're never gonna get into, you know, the skimpy dress of an 18 and 19-year-old, and you've gotta set set different targets. I think, you know, so it's not always about losing weight, it's about have you got a little bit stronger. Um, you know, and that I think, once you've set your targets, it's easy for them to to realise they are making progress. So it's, that is the way you'd you'd manage that. Miles: Yeah. Charles: That, I'm I right, when you come in, I am not expecting you to lose 10 kilos in 10 weeks, right? Miles: Yeah.

Charles: I would like you to be able to do this and that, and this and that, and this and that. Oh, and it just seems so far away from them, right? But after 3 weeks, they're already thinking, "Oh my god, I've nearly reached my 10-week target. That's fantastic." Or, "I'll start to think maybe about a bit of weight loss now, and maybe about toning up a little bit." Because the word toning, I do believe, is a thing for my demographic, you know, because that's what they want to do. Um, just don't set lofty targets. So they'll look around the gym and they'll see the 18 and 19-year-olds in the figure-hugging shorts. And it's like, yeah, but you know, that's not for you.

Charles: And it's it might be a little bit demoralising for them, but then they kind of come to, actually, no, that isn't for me. I just want to feel better. Yeah. You know, I had a client today, we haven't done TRX rows for 6, 8 months. She did them today, she went, "Oh my god, I feel stronger on that." And she says, "I was in the shower and I like, I've got..." Miles: I know, it's starting back

Charles: in my arms, yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of them said, oh, she's got tons of... So you don't have to sell it to them and just and and explain that these you know the criteria set originally originally had been met. They will tell you it's like, "Oh my god." This and the other thing that's a really great one is, I'll film them doing an exercise and then show them the video and I'll say, "And if you'd seen that on Instagram, you'd say, 'Wow, that's great.' But guess what? That actually is you." And they're like, "Oh, that's amazing." You just need to you know get the right lighting, a little bit of muscle, it's like, "Yeah, do you know what?" I'm sold on this. Miles: Yeah, yeah.

Callum: I think it's the framing in it, because especially with the clients that come in nowadays, because they've got so much exposure to social media, their expectations of what their goals are is much different from what the expectation- what they actually want. And yeah, when a client comes in, it's like, I want to lose X amount of weight, I want to improve my figure, I want to do this, I want to do that. It's like, well, why? Like, you need to ask why, because if you're not asking why, you don't actually know what your goal is. Charles: Yeah.

Callum: And there's gonna be a point where you dip and you don't know actually, you know, what you want. Is it- are you progressing? Are you not? Are you- is it worth it? If you haven't got the actual goal you want in mind, then it's not gonna prophesy itself, you're not gonna come forward. Um, yeah, and I agree with that as well, trying to find those little wins, making sure they actually understand it's a lifestyle. I think that's really hard for PTs to do now, is to sell their services, because everyone lives in 8-week packages. Charles: Yeah. Callum: You know, get fit in 60, do this, and because- Charles: Make a photo shoot.

Callum: Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I know it sells, but no one's considering this as a factor. What happens when they achieve that goal? What's next? Is there a next point? Have you got an aftercare plan? Have you got something to talk to them about? Because if people want to live here and now really quick, they're not understanding the value of why people enjoy going to the gym in the first place. I think that is a really tough selling point. I think we talked to Josh about like how you communicate your services online, it's getting ever more difficult to be a genuine person because coaches are now seeing what other people are doing online and copying and role modelling and not being themselves.

Charles: The good thing about a lot of my demographic is that, say the 40, 45, 50, right, their parents are in their 80s and they are they had they're those 80-year-olds weren't exposed to the same amount of social media that we are now, so they weren't aware of of what fitness was and how to stay fit. So they're struggling to stand up, sit down, carry the shopping. And I can say to them, you don't want to end up like your parents. My dad's in that 80-year-old range and I can see he's struggling to walk. And you think, wow, you know, this is not great. And they will see their their elders struggling and they don't want to be like that.

Charles: I kept some of my clients for 7 or 8 years because they can see the value going forward. You know, they haven't had the most amazing body transformations, and that for me is a little bit disappointing. You think, oh, I see all these other coaches having body transformations. Then you think to yourself, but that's not my market. You know, my market is taking someone who wants to have a great life at 40, 50, 60, 70, and can and can still wipe their own backsides at 80. And when you say that, originally they're like, oh yeah. And then they see that the I say the parents, struggling to think, and the the the lightbulb moment, the penny drops, like, "Oh my god, yeah, actually I want to be strong.

Charles: I get it now." Yeah. So I don't I don't have to have massive wins every week. I'm just not getting, sounds bad, any worse. Callum: Yeah, you're accumulating. Miles: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want that person to have their independence, to be able to get out of the bath. Charles: Yes. Miles: Off the toilet, not fall.

Charles: And this does age. But this doesn't resonate with a with a young PT. I'm going back to them because all they think about is, you know, biceps, chest, big great physique, great glutes. Yeah. They're not thinking about the 50-year-old who just wants to be able to get out of a chair. In fact, I had a client today say to me, she said, "I remember when getting out of a chair was..." She sat down on a bench and she struggled to get off. Then she says, "Now look at this." And she sat down on stuff, she says, "I can do that now." Callum: Mm-hmm, Charles: yeah. And you know, when she came in to see me 2 years ago, she was brought in by a friend and she was like, "I really don't want to I come." don't need the KT, I don't want to train. And then it was like, I get it.

Callum: Yeah, it's a life experience thing. Like, as an example, I didn't appreciate 8 hours sleep until I had a child. Charles: Right, okay. Callum: I I was like, I can I can take whatever sleep I want, I can still function every day. If I get less than 6 hours sleep, I am a nightmare because I've got a child to look after. And I realise how valuable sleep is. And the relationship I'm making is life experiences teach you. It teaches you. Like, if you've got an 18-year-old PT who's training someone in their 40s, for instance, you know, and they're they're struggling between sets and like, oh, we've got 12 sets to complete today, we're gonna do this. That person only does 6, they think it's a failure. They're happy they just made it.

Charles: Yeah. You've gotta be able to, I think, be uh when I said it made you a better person, if you work in an office, you really don't have many people to deal with, but when When someone comes into the gym, you are you are like a sponge for all their emotions and you you learn how to just just morph into a different person on every session, you know. This person doesn't want to talk, this person does. This person has, you know, maybe depressive moments, this person doesn't have a good relationship with food. And you you get so much more. Callum: Ryan calls it being a chameleon. Charles: Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, you are a chameleon. Miles: Well, you're different personality types, as we know, that some people you need to be very direct with. Charles: Yes.

Miles: Some people you need to be very empathetic with, because to get the most out of that client in that session on their journey, you know the ones you need to give them a real push and the ones you need to be a bit softly softly with. Charles: I don't know if I should say this, but I've actually sacked two clients mid-session because of what they were saying. Just like, do you know what, actually, you've had loads of this, I've been with you for 18 months and what you're just telling me now is absolutely It's absolute bullshit, and I know it's a lie, and I've actually said, look, session stops there. Miles: It's not good for me, it's not good for you, it's not working.

Charles: Yeah, it's a waste of your money. PT is not cheap, and this is a real drain on me. I had a client one time, she came in and she was complaining, and she stopped mid-complain and said, I need to stop doing this because you've probably had about 8 of these today. So as well as you take the good energy on, Callum: Yeah. Charles: You take all that on, it's like you don't realise it, but it just whittles you down a little bit.

Callum: Yeah, I think it takes a certain amount of time when you first start with a client who's been very new to the gym. Their first motivation is punishment because they want to come in saying, I need to change because I hate the way I look. And you, your job as a trainer is to switch that narrative, reverse engineer it, and say, I'm coming to the gym because I love being here, and your body changes as a byproduct. That's like the last thing that changes, your mind first, body. But some people get stuck in that rhythm of that punishment life. So when you're asking them to do something like, let's go do some squats, like, I hate squats, I hate this, and like, you're leaving that negativity.

Callum: Like you say, it can actually leak onto you. And if your next client comes in who's buzzing and you're just like, you just had Linda who's just been chewing your ear off for the last hour about how much she hates coming here, you're not gonna be have the energy to perform for that next client. Charles: That is right, they do bounce between. I know that if I've got 6 or 7 clients back to back, I work better than if I've got 2, then a gap, because it's almost like you've got this really high and then it dips massively. Callum: Yeah.

Charles: And I know anything outside the gym can affect the way I deliver sessions. I've I've had a bad back for like 9 months and for the last 9 months I've known my sessions haven't been up to my standards. I mentioned this to a client, she goes, 'I've noticed.' She goes, 'I know you've been down on yourself, but my sessions haven't changed.' changed, and you think, well, that's nice that you've seen that, but I can feel that I'm not giving what I need to give. Because you know, you do need to coax them through a session almost. Miles: Do you, Charles, as well, following on from what you just said there, do you or have you, with clients starting out, have you said, this is how I work, this is what I'm expecting from you, and this is how this is gonna work together?

Charles: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes what we'll do is we'll go through the first stage of a plan, and then as we're going through it, I'll say, "Do you like that exercise?" "Uh, no." "Right, we'll change to something else then." So they're involved in the process of, you know, I'll teach them that, "Actually, this exercise does the same as this. Do you prefer that?" And so, it's more of a little bit of a a a union of a union of our thoughts. Miles: Yes.

Charles: "I'm gonna enjoy this." Yeah. I know that I enjoy that exercise and I can lift more and more. So they want to come in. It's not just about, you will do this and if you don't then you can get lost. You know, but I think that's why I've lasted so long and had so many clients that have lasted with me so long because we do have that back and forth and, Miles: you Charles: know, if they don't like something, we change it. Callum: Yeah, and they are paying you at the end of the day. You're not there to be a drill sergeant method, which I think a lot of people still think PTs do. Miles: It's coaching versus consulting. Coaching is a two-way process. Consulting is purely a one-way process. Callum: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charles: Do you know what, I've got a couple of mentors now and they are big on becoming a better coach, and until I started training with them about 2 years ago, I didn't, I don't suppose I realised what coaching was. It's and it's, I shouldn't say that, you know, 8 years into a PT career, I don't know what I don't know what coaching is. Actually, you need to give someone the tools to be able to change their lives without without you being there. Yeah. Miles: You're the facilitator, you kind of help the process, don't you?

Charles: Yeah, I I actually said to them, if I could get what's in my head in your heads, you'd be brilliant. I actually wrote a book recently to give to my clients. I said, right, do you know what, sometimes I'm not with you, and this 64-page manual, everything I know, right, if ever you've got a point, that you don't know, it'd be in that book. Because I don't want to keep my knowledge in here. I want them to be absolutely amazing people. I don't want to keep clients forever. I want them to come, get what they need to get, know what they need, and go. Yeah. I've just got such a great personality, they stay with me for 7 years. Miles: Yeah, they can't leave. Charles: That's right, yeah. Miles is like, "Yeah, alright, yeah."

Miles: So, let's have a look now. Let's let's let's let's look at it this way. So, with the knowledge you have now, over the 10 years. If you were starting as a PT today from scratch, what would you do sort of step by step from a building a client base perspective, social media perspective, branding? Just talk us through what you would do if you were starting now, Charles 2.0. Charles: Wow, that's a good one, isn't it? You've got to relate- social media is a massive thing. Um, I think you need a presence, you need a niche. That is, that is the thing. What, because everyone can say, "I'm a fat loss and muscle building expert." Brilliant, fantastic. Well, if I if I if I look on Google for me, I'm about 6 pages in, no one's gonna come to me. But, if I say I specialise in females over 40, who are going through menopause-

Miles: Who struggle with this, this, this. Charles: It's like, all right, immediately I'm in the top 5%. Yeah. And because I'm in Leeds, I'm in the top 1%. Well, he's the guy I want to go to. So get yourself a niche. That's number 1. People buy from people. So don't be a robot, right? And some of my mentors and my girlfriend says this all the time. Put more of you on. People are interested in your music, what you're eating, What you're wearing, you know, people want to know about you, right? I would then, on my social media, I'd probably have conversations- Miles: Is that '80s soft rock, is it, by any chance? Charles: You know what I mean? Duran Duran. Miles: You know, I'm just saying, I'm just saying.

Charles: No, but honestly, right, we we went out on Saturday night and I had 3 people in the gym, my dot dots, come to me and say, "Phil, were you a bit rough on Saturday night? Have you recovered?" You need to be known as a person. Miles: Yeah. Charles: You need a niche and just don't be a dickhead, but stand for something and and shout it from the rooftops. Like, I believe in this, and if you come to me, that is what you're getting. Try not to change your niche every 2 minutes. You know, oh, I'm I'm into fat loss this week, now I'm a muscle gain expert. Miles: Yeah, yeah, then you're the HIIT coach next year because that's fashionable and-

Charles: I I don't want to tell you the HIIT- no, I won't tell you the HIIT story. Sorry, because I will get shot for that. Yeah, we- Off camera. Yeah, it's get your niche, be exceptional at what you do, and let people know your personality. But that's gonna take time. You're not gonna roll out a PT academy on a Monday, and do it on a, you know, on Tuesday doing that. I've actually said to my girlfriend who's doing a PT qualification at the moment, at the same time as you're doing the qualification, Get your Instagram up and running, let people know you, you know, let them see your training, let them see what you are, develop a develop a base of people Miles: who

Charles: then when you qualify think, "Oh, she's great, I've spoken to her on Instagram, she's brilliant." You know, you've gotta be the first point of call, have conversations in in your DMs with people, you know, then they when they want a PT, it's like, "Oh, yeah, I've spoken to him, he's a decent bloke and he listens to Duran Duran." I'll train with him. Miles: 100%. We, I mean, we've talked about this at length. I think I think a lot of PTs sometimes, rather than being authentic, genuine, talking about who you are, what you believe in, how you train, this is my style of training that I believe works for this market. Some people are scared of putting that out there because of the opinions of others.

Charles: I think we've got A woke generation, I need to be careful. I'm of a certain age, and you are as well, where I don't give a shit. But you have to give a shit because you can say something and suddenly you've offended half your followers, and you don't do it on purpose, it's just the way you are. Unfortunately, you do have to think, think like that now. Callum: Yeah, um, that's the biggest problem with social media. I find to be yourself, you almost have to assimilate to a shared opinion on some things. And, and it's, it's the same with the podcast world, to be honest, because a lot of people want you to come on and have a controversial conversation. We've just not yet found anyone who's that controversial. So I think we all relate on that same point. Miles: Yeah.

Callum: But a lot of people do drift towards the opinionated, but it's gotta be softly opinionated. I Charles: totally agree. Like, I I was told, you know, I was gonna say a couple of things and my girlfriend said, "If you say those things, you'll wake up tomorrow morning with no followers." Callum: And Charles: it's like, but that is true because people are so easily offended. But sometimes you need to hear the hard things. Callum: I think it's the imposter syndrome. Miles: Yeah, it's saying saying it in a way that gets the point across, dances the line without stepping over the line. Charles: Don't be rude about it. Miles: Yeah, yeah, yeah, without being a- because we all see where where it kicks off online in the fitness space. Charles: That'd be me then, you've seen some of my comments.

Miles: So we've we've seen we've seen it we've seen it before and it brings out the the worst sometimes in the fitness industry, because you have all the infighting amongst fitness professionals and although We might not believe in keto, we might not believe in this particular style of training. You've got your high volume people versus low volume people arguing and it's like, well, they can both work.

Charles: I I never, because I haven't got many interests apart from Duran Duran, I never look at other industries. I don't look at car industries or you know the the water purifier industry. And I don't know if they have the same arguments. Maybe they do. Maybe ours isn't unique. Yeah. And maybe I need to look at those things. But one of my clients said to me one day, "Why do you get involved in these? Because really it means nothing." And you know what? I didn't for a month and I felt absolutely at peace. It was amazing. Miles: Yeah. Charles: And then you get drawn back into it. Oh, I think Miles: because because it wants to suck you back in, doesn't it? It's literally wants to get- because it wants engagement. Charles: But you want people to know how much you know. Callum: Yeah. Charles: And yeah.

Callum: But the thing is, no, this is a point that is important. It's the first person will get scrutinised, not the middle person and the last person. It's always the first and last person that'll get it the most. People that are jumping in in the middle- so if you're the 50th comment on a controversial post and you're saying something outlandish, you'll be fine. If you're the first, and it could be the exact same comment, that's where people get you. Charles: Yeah. Callum: People like to front page you, and they do it all the time in the fitness industry. Someone's got an outlandish, not even an outlandish, but someone's got a point that's gonna upset people. They'll bring you to the front and make you the problem. Not the conversation, not the point, you. Charles: I've I've had that. People will come onto your page and they will-

Miles: I was just gonna ask you that. On your page, when you've posted content, have you had people come on your page and go, "That's a load of crap." Charles: I'm I'm gonna tell you how how bad it gets. I had someone- I posted a comment on some- on something and someone tagged themselves in about 10 of my- 10 of my stories saying, 'Charles Townend supports rapists.' I kid you not. Miles: Really? Charles: And then another one put a foul comment on another dozen of my posts, then sent me some dodgy DMs and then started racially abusing my girlfriend. So people are- I've still got the messages as well. It's just absolute cra- you would not do it in the street. Callum: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Miles: So what's your advice? Is your advice to block and delete, or is it to try not engage with them?

Charles: Right, don't bother commenting in the first place. Miles: Yeah. Charles: Because as much as you want to- my client said, you know, that he- The guy I'm talking about is a really successful businessman, right? And he doesn't get involved. It's like that, just don't get involved no matter how wrong it is. You know, if someone if someone says, you know, keto, standing on one leg with with with a broccoli smoothie chaser is brilliant, right, that's fine. But you know what, because my clients aren't going to see that and it's not gonna affect my bills. Miles: It just wastes your time in an argument, smile. Charles: Yeah, yeah, and then then. I don't know about you, but if I comment on something like that, then you're waiting for someone else to comment, and then you're on to, "Oh, right, I'm gonna have to reply." It's a dopamine feed, isn't it? Miles: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charles: Actually, you know what? Just don't bother. Miles: But what about on your page though? So you you put some content on, demonstrating something, commenting about something. Have you had somebody come on your page about your post and go- Charles: No, do you know why? Because it's never wrong. No, I'm kidding. No, because I- I'd like to think that- this might sound really arrogant- that I know what I'm talking about, and I think the stuff I put on is pretty well thought out and factually correct and can be backed up. Callum: You

Charles: know, I don't just put some random stuff on. Uh, we're building- I've got a social media uh campaign coming up the next couple of weeks. I need 115 pieces of social media content, and I've gone through it all, how I'm gonna shoot it, what I'm gonna do, and trying to find the studies to back me up so I know that I can't be pulled apart. And you know, if people wanna have those conversations, you drop into their own DMs and have a chat with them. I wouldn't bring it onto my page because then people are like, "Oh, look, he's arguing, he's arguing." Take it into your DMs, have a little bit of a chat, change an opinion, you might have a client. Callum: Yeah. Miles: Yeah, so for any PT starting, that's good advice, I think. Charles: Yeah, don't- Miles: Don't get involved.

Charles: Yeah, don't get involved. My girlfriend will be watching this and saying, "You always get involved." Miles: Can't help Charles: yourself. Miles: Yeah, can't help yourself. Callum: Yeah, but it's do as I say, not as I do, innit? Charles: Yeah, exactly, same as your PT. Don't eat that cake, I'm off for a doughnut. Callum: Yeah. So, I mean, with your years' experience in the PT game, and you will have been in the middle of the shift And we had this conversation with Josh about, you know, AI coming into the mix and people starting a business, trying to accelerate the business. What's- where are you standing on that? Because I feel like you've got something loaded. With the AI?

Charles: Yeah. Right. A real-world scenario. So, if you're- I'm assuming this is like more like online stuff, right? If you're paying a coach, you are paying to be coached. So that's a human interaction. I don't mind you starting off with a little bit of AI. So say you're looking at a diet plan, right? Well, I want a 3-meal diet plan, 1,500 calories. Then use your intelligence, I'll tell you why I'm coming back to that in a second, use your intelligence to change it. Real-world scenario, Saturday night, I was trying to go out and I'm thinking, "What kind of shoes would a guy my age wear in Leeds?" Right? Seemingly white trainers are the thing. Went on AI, "Can you tell me where I get some white trainers from?" Out of 50 pairs of trainers that were recommended, 2 were white.

Charles: The rest had bits on, different colours, everything. But it took the human interaction intervention to realise that they weren't correct. So you so you could have somebody who knew nothing about fitness at all, right? And they would look at AI and AI would say, "Right, you need to eat 3,000 calories a day." "Oh, well, AI says I need to use that and I'll do that." Whereas the human coach would say, Yeah, 3,000 calories isn't for you. So AI can be wrong. And I've seen it, you know, 40 hours ago, telling me these blue trainers were white. You know, telling the the the 40-year-old woman that she should be on she should be on 3,000 calories a day, otherwise she's gonna be underfueled and she's wondering why she can't lose weight.

Charles: It can be used, but you need you need to know your stuff before you start to implement AI. And I think coaches using it for check-ins, oh, that's bang out of order. Literally, like, why why am I even here? If if you're telling someone that you are coaching them, using AI to do a check-in, bang out of order. You should be spending like half an hour, an hour on that person explaining what's wrong, because AI cannot replace that. I don't think it ever will. Callum: Yeah, it's common conversation that if you can augment AI in your business, and not automate. That makes more sense. Charles: Yes.

Callum: But that's the problem people fall into, because now- I mean, I use AI quite prolifically, um, I use it quite well, I understand it because I had substance on my business first, and I made some things better, some things I took out completely, and I've had trial runs. I'm enjoying the process of learning what works, what doesn't. Someone coming into a business that they've never built before Yeah. Fresh new PTs, like, "I can use Claude, I can use this and put together something with substance and sell it." Doesn't make any sense because you haven't found out what works and what doesn't.

Charles: Yeah, yeah. You've gotta do things- yet another conversation I had today- you've gotta do something right to realise- wrong, to realise what's right and how to do it correctly. If you if you if you stumble on something, you do it absolutely perfectly the first time, you won't have learned anything. Callum: Yeah. Charles: If you've screwed something up 3 or 4 times, like, ah, actually, you know, I know what I'm doing now. I think you need to make those mistakes to actually nail your craft. Callum: Yeah, absolutely. Miles: Now, the next one is online PT. What are the pros and cons of it in terms of, 1, for the trainer, and 2, for the client?

Charles: I have a vested interest in this because I'm trying to move into more of an online, the online space. I hate that phrase, online space. Um, because I think that one-to-one personal training is very expensive, very hands-on, some nice results, but your results can almost be limited by the amount of sessions they can afford. Does does that make seem to make sense? If I have an online client, I can say, "Right, here's your plan. I want you to go to the gym 4 times a week and do 10,000 steps a day and do this and do that." And then you check in once a week and they have done it. Whereas if someone's coming to the gym 3 times a week, they almost think if they've got a PT, they're entitled to results.

Charles: So they might come in, you know, if they only come in, say, once a week, and you say, "Right, well, can you do this and this and this away from me?" "Well, I haven't really got time." They're paying for Callum: the guarantee. Charles: Yeah. for you to for you to to train me. Yeah, but I can train you once a week, but I can't make you do 10,000 steps a day, and I can't make you do the the meal, and I can't make you go to the gym another twice away from me. Oh, I thought you could. No. Whereas online, for me, you can actually overload someone with work, and they will almost get a better result. I'm almost talking myself out of a job there, but

Miles: this is a bit of a loaded question. I think you know where I'm going with this. Do you feel that way because you've done 10 years of the hard yards, so now you feel you can do it properly, or at day one, could you have been a good online coach? Charles: Oh, I could have been a good online coach when I started. Miles: Yeah. Charles: And my very first coach was online, and a guy called Luke, can't remember his second name, that's how good he was. But he took me from being an overweight stroke victim to getting on a world championship stage. Callum: stage. Charles: So I know it works, but the person has to apply it. Miles: You've gotta be invested in the change, you've gotta do the work.

Charles: Yeah, because I I I have people buy online plans off me and they go, "Oh, it don't work." "Did you do it?" "Well, of course I did." It would have worked then, wouldn't it? You know, I didn't I didn't buy it just to look at it. And the person has to want to change. And if it don't matter if you're online or on on or in person, if they don't- I've got I've got a thing about the change, but if they don't if they don't want it, it won't happen. Callum: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I understand that. And the problem is that can diminish the dedication of the PT unless you are vocal about it. Charles: Yeah. Callum: Because I've had those clients, I'm sure you've had those clients, those clients who wear the badge of honour of having a PT and they buy- that buys the result quicker than actually doing the work.

Charles: Well, sometimes, like, I'm gonna film myself at the gym with my PT. Look everyone, how much money I've got, I've got a PT. Callum: Yeah, yeah. Charles: Yeah, you're not- you're not training. Callum: It's a weird luxury though because it's like, yes, it's like driving a Range Rover you can't fuel. Charles: Yeah. Callum: It's just parked on your drive. Like, it's great but you can't use it. Charles: Totally. Callum: It doesn't make it, but I also get it because it is a luxury.

Charles: I'm just gonna say it because if any of my clients are listening to this, right, none of my clients fall into that category. They all want to do well, you know. They've never come to me and said, "I can't be arsed," you know. They all want a change. It's just some people think, and I have had clients in the past who just think it's, "Oh, I've got a PT, I turn up at the gym, can't be arsed, can I go after half an hour, or just don't do any of it." That can be quite demoralising, and that can be online or in person. The thing is, if you're doing it online, you just don't see it, whereas if they're coming into the gym, they're like, oh, you are a mood- literally, what are they called?

Charles: The Dementors from the Harry Potter films. It's like, oh my god, you are sucking everything out of me. Miles: Mood hoovers, yeah. Charles: That's it, mood hoovers. So yeah, I do like online. I want I want to do more online myself. I think you can you You can probably touch more people than you can in person, but I also think, you know, the the the level for entry is so poor. You know, you could you could do a physique competition, come last, and suddenly you're an online coach. Miles: Yeah. Charles: Yeah. There's like, do you have to be qualified? I think there's an extra- Miles: Lots of lots of lots of people seem to think you don't, because I got sent something the other day Somebody said to me, "This guy here, do you know if he's qualified?" I said, "Well, he's certainly not qualified with us." Callum: Yeah.

Miles: And I looked at him and I looked through his profile, and I know, yes, your profile shouldn't be, "I'm level 2, I'm level 3, I'm a back specialist." Yeah. It should be who you help, how you help them, what's your methodology. But somewhere on your profile, There should be some kind of recognition of, 'I trained with Focus Fitness, Premier Training, PT Launch Lab, or certified in 2016.' So I think a lot of people genuinely in the online space aren't in any way qualified in anything.

Callum: Over 60% at least. Yeah, especially- well, actually, Josh, but the point is, the COVID boom was a perfect time for an online coach, but It's a classification online coach, right? People started doing it because either they were bored or, you know, because it were a perfect market, it were there, people weren't allowed to leave the house. And it's like, you know, if you were Davina McCall, you'd make another exercise video again because you'd be able to sell millions of copies.

Charles: Gosh, this is gonna sound like the old man, right? But if you're a young woman with great glutes You are gonna sell more courses to young women with you want the group than I will. Yeah. Even with my experience of, you know, over, I think it was 13,000 hours of experience when I last looked, right? You know, but if you've got a better bum than me, you're gonna sell more things, your courses to me. Miles: Because purely on visual, I want that. Charles: Yeah. I want that. Callum: Yeah. Well, it's back in the '80s, Pumping Iron, and I brought a book out of his his workout plans. Millions of copies sold because the idea was, if I train like Arnie, I'm gonna look like Arnie. Charles: So my girlfriend is currently doing an online PT course. Um, she's a stu- you've met my girlfriend?

Miles: No, I've just seen her on your socials, that's all. Charles: Absolutely astonishingly beautiful, and I mean that. Um, I've actually said- Miles: Edit that out, edit that out. Charles: I've actually said to her- Callum: Send that clip to me when you're done. Charles: I've actually said to her that when When she qualifies as PT, she will make more money than I ever will because people want to look like her. Miles: Yeah. Charles: They don't want to look like the the you know the 56-year-old white guy. They don't want to they don't want to look like that. She she's got olive skin, perfect physique, great glutes. Um I am gonna get some praises out from this. She looks fantastic and women will women want to look like that. Callum: Yeah.

Charles: Even though You know, I've got, you know, my my specialist area is female health, level 5 nutritional, you know, qualifications, PT for 10 years, 13,000 sessions, right? They would rather buy from the pretty, pretty girl than the guy who knows it all. Callum: Yeah, I think, yeah, there is substance to that, but also how you communicate is really important as well. Because if you had that attractive person, that man or woman who looks the part, But then when they communicate what they know and it sounds like they're just, you know, talking gibberish, Spanish, whatever, but you can communicate stuff better, I think that's where we win because you're relating. Charles: Unfortunately, she communicates really well as well, so-

Miles: As you, as you, Charles, you, you relating in your videos and your content as a guy, With 10 years experience, 13,000 sessions delivered, over X number of reviews, this number of testimonials, having been on stage myself, all those things are building trust and credibility, aren't they? Charles: Yeah. Miles: All of them. Charles: Like I said, people buy from people. Callum: Yeah. Charles: You know, they want to know that you know what you're doing. Miles: Yeah.

Callum: Yeah. Yeah, and that will always be the point. And this is like, this is what we were saying, like, if you are a good PT, not the best PT, but you're also someone who can communicate and everything like that, you will do better than someone who knows more than you but can't communicate and can't relate. And there's the market for that. And every single person that comes onto our course worry about the expert level, saying, I don't think I know enough about- you'll learn. They're skills. What I need from you now is enthusiasm, the ability to talk to people, and the want to change people. Charles: You did mention about as a new PT in a gym, what would I do? The other one is be visible in that gym. You just said it there, to be able to talk. Miles: Get to know everyone.

Charles: Yes. People- I feel embarrassed to say this, but people will say, you know, come up to me in Graft House and say, "Hey, Charles, you alright?" I say, "Aye, mate," because I don't know their names. Miles: But they know yours. Charles: Yeah, because you go and talk to everyone in the gym. Callum: Yeah. Charles: And make sure they all know you. And they might not all like you. That's fine. Miles: But they might say to their missus, "Oh, there's a good PT down at the gym." Even though they don't want it, they tell somebody else. Charles: Yeah, and they'll follow you on Instagram and they will look at your stories and all that kind of stuff. And at some point, like you said, they'll pass your details on. Miles: Yeah. Charles: And you'll probably get them as a client.

Miles: Enjoyed that, mate. I really enjoyed that. Is there anything else you want to uh get off your chest or discuss before we wrap up? Charles: I can't think. Miles: No, no, I'm sure, I'm sure there'll be episode 2 in the future. Callum: Where can we find you? Social media, everything like that? Do you want to plug you? Charles: It's Team T Charles, all one word. That's on my Instagram. I've got a YouTube channel, which if you go onto my Instagram, it's on there. There's the links, click at the top, it's all on there. There's free 4-week plan, there's um consultation forms, anybody wants to get in touch, have a chat. Callum: We'll make sure we collaborate on this anyway, so they can all find you. Miles: We'll we'll we'll tag you in on all the videos and stuff anyway, mate.

Callum: Yeah, but thank you very much for coming on, mate. I really enjoyed that. Charles: Yeah, enjoyed it too. Miles: Cheers, Charles. Thank Charles: you.