AI, GLP-1s and the Death of the £20 Personal Trainer — PT Launch Lab LIVE

Host: Welcome to PT Launch Lab Live, July 2026. We're really excited to have such a distinguished panel of guests with us this evening. Joining us tonight, we've got Sohail Rashid from Brawn, serial investor, and is going to bring a lot to the table. We've got Tom Blackman, who's the owner of Ministry of Fitness Gym. We've got Chris Duffin, who's a science advisor, peptide expert, resilience coach from the States. We've got John from the Gym Group, who is the ops director, who's going to bring a lot of value from the commercial fitness space.

Host: We're also delighted to have Jonny Grayshon, somebody who I know well, who's an excellent personal trainer, online coach, and again can talk from the trenches about current coaching in 2026. And finally, we've got Paul Richardson, who is a serial investor in multiple industries, worked for Gymshark, and is now in the fitness sector as well. So moving into our first section of the evening. So we're going to look at AI first of all.

Host: So when we think about the fitness industry, there's lots of chatter about AI, about how it's going to grow the industry or kill the industry. It's going to take the PT's business away or it's going to help them grow at an exponential rate. Now, I think the first question I want to ask is to Paul. Realistically, when you look at AI in fitness, Paul, where is it heading? Where is the money going? And what's going on currently with AI in fitness?

Paul Richardson: Well, I think AI is no different to the other things that have happened all over the years in terms of industrial revolution, you know, the dot-com sort of internet boom, and everyone gets really excited about everything and also really scared. So I think it's difficult at the moment to say exactly where the money's going because I don't think we really know the exact bets on it. I think for me, this is about making everything that we do better.

Paul Richardson: So in terms of fitness ranging from, you know, longevity, PT, data, and everything else, I think it's just gonna help. So I definitely don't think it's gonna hinder everything. I definitely don't think it's gonna kill it. But for me, it's how we use it over the next probably a couple of years when we find out exactly what works and what doesn't. And some stuff will and some won't.

Paul Richardson: Um, but I think it's difficult at the moment almost to put your finger on exactly what will happen, except for me, it'll make it better, just like engines did, um, you know, the internet did, etc. Cool, cool.

Host: And Sohail, I know you're actively working with AI within the fitness industry at the moment. What do you see AI changing within the fitness industry?

Sohail Rashid: So I'm going to give you a very personal storey over the last 10 days. So I went to France with the kids and did a road trip, and I had a Highs and lows experience of AI. So AI managed to organise my trip, where to go, what to do, what hotels to stay in, but it also sent me to car parks that didn't exist, car parks that, uh, didn't have the height capacity for my 4x4, uh, and it also sent me to locations that were completely made up in terms of how far they were.

Sohail Rashid: And the taxi ride from A to B. And I think, Miles, I think that is exactly where we are with AI today. There are huge, huge gains to be made, but unless you put guardrails in place and unless you really, really manage it in terms of what it can and can't give you verbatim advice to do. Yeah. it can actually be really, really inefficient. And I think that's a real, real issue over the next 18 to 24 months.

Sohail Rashid: However, where AI is going, and I hate to sound like the twat Elon Musk after what he's done recently, but actually what he said, Miles, is spot on. In 5 years' time, the ability that AI has at an intellectual level is completely different to where it is today. Like, we are already looking at a world where 6 months ago we weren't asking the questions that we were. , etc. Like, 6 months ago was completely different to where it was 12, 18 months ago.

Sohail Rashid: So the way that I like to answer this question, Miles, is it's not really where the models are today. It's where the models are going to be. And what does that mean? And I think the efficiency benefits are still to come. And I think that the way that the gym industry and PTs and members use AI today is actually not too dissimilar to how they're using Google and how they used to use Google.

Sohail Rashid: However, and this is the key bit, Particularly for people like Jonny and John and Chris and Tom on this call as operators and PTs and ambassadors for fitness. Someone needs to feed the dog, by the way. Where we go in 6 to 12 to 18 months is about thinking where, where the model's going to be. What are people going to be using AI for in 6, 12, 18 months? And what are the gaps? And I was actually chatting to Paul about it earlier.

Sohail Rashid: So my view, before I kind of let somebody else talk, is we're going to be super, super efficient as a race, more efficient than we've ever been, because literally intellect, efficiency, time, effort, ROI— like, the rules are being rewritten. You know that, Miles, in terms of all of our businesses. What does that actually mean to gen pop? Abundance, time, ROI for time is going to go through the roof. What does that actually mean? What does that translate to? It means more time than generations before.

Sohail Rashid: So when I look at AI, I think in-person experience, physical, anything that you're doing. that revolves around a physical site. John, you've got 250 sites. That's now it's a million people, a million people wanting in-person physical experiences. That's actually an opportunity, Miles, rather than a negative. And I think we look at AI as a negative when actually it's not. It's an enabler. That's my view. Agree. Agree.

Host: And just, Tom, if I can come to you now. As an independent gym owner, where does AI fit in currently for an independent gym to help your business and help your members and help your coaches?

Tom Blackman: Um, yeah, it's interesting because, because John's here as well. So I don't know if that was deliberately made up so we could have a good row over independence versus This is actually excellent. I think independence has always been, in terms of like big groups, is the personalization as possible. Because with independents, and obviously, Maja, you're an independent gym owner, you only have like maybe 1 or 2 or maybe 3 sites, which gives you a much more personal experience.

Tom Blackman: And AI, in terms of what it can give the independent gym compared to the big commercials with hundreds of sites, is that real, real personalization. I, I thought people have, especially what I've seen, seen them, so, and has been doing with AI is, is actually depersonalising the experience. And I mean, I did a bit of a meme thing on this on Instagram where we see all these posters now, which is, which is basically just, oh, make me a poster about my event that's coming up, and they all look the same.

Tom Blackman: And with this rush to embrace AI, independent gym owners are actually going the opposite way and depersonalising their business because their view of, say, ChatGPT or whatever else is, how can I, how can I get rid of tasks I don't want to do? Rather than my, my view on it is how can I make tasks which are behind the scenes, which people don't see and will never see, how can I make those faster? And so I can spend more time on the personalization.

Tom Blackman: So an example of this is I used to, my gym, I give everyone a smart meal plan. It's tailored to their selfie. We used to work out all the calories and macros and everything else, like specifically for that person. Excuse me. I've now built a system which goes through like making about 5 different things with Claude linked into it, which they fill in a form in 5 minutes. They got a diet plan back. It used to take me like a day or so with my VA. editing it all out to get back to them.

Tom Blackman: Now it's literally 5 minutes. They fill out the form, it does all the stuff, calculates it to the stuff that I would do normally anyway, and they get a diet plan and macros and advice on how to eat, et cetera, in 5 minutes, which is a massive USP for me because no one in the— no one in Bristol does that. So that's some way I've done the behind-the-scenes stuff to make it more faster so that we can get on with the personalization stuff.

Tom Blackman: So we can be on a call with Corvus and say, all right, let's, um, let's do your diet plan, right? By the time we finish the call, you've got a diet plan in your inbox. Now let's talk about how to implement that.

Tom Blackman: And I think that's maybe where independent gym owners are missing the trick here, that they're using ChatGPT for a lot of really the top-level basic stuff when they really should be going, how can we make the experience of the member better and we can get more personalization but make all the, all the boring admin stuff quicker? That's my view on it.

Host: Okay, John, in the Gym Group, which is obviously a massive player in the UK industry, how is AI helping you grow as a chain and help the member experience? Yeah, thanks.

Jon Baker: Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with you, Paul, don't worry. So, I mean, AI is going to create efficiencies across many sectors. and ours, our, you know, health and fitness is no different. I tend to agree with Tom's sentiment that, you know, even looking at it from a large, you know, nationwide business, if you want, that actually, certainly operationally, we want to be using AI to reduce the amount of work that our teams in the gyms are doing that isn't directly benefiting a member. Face-to-face. So this isn't about reducing, you know, reducing resource levels.

Jon Baker: We want to free up their resource, free up the time. We don't want fitness managers and general managers in offices looking at spreadsheets, et cetera. We want to remove every task that we can that doesn't directly benefit a member to give them more time on the front line with their members, engaging their members and engaging their personal training teams. So that's our view on how we can leverage AI operationally. And really, I think more generally as a business in terms of our growth strategy is not, we don't have an AI growth strategy.

Jon Baker: We have a growth strategy and then how can we use AI to either deliver that faster or deliver it more efficiently? And that's more, I suppose, a group sort of strategic level. But I do tend to focus on the— you know, yeah.

Sohail Rashid: Miles, can I jump in? I, I'm not gonna try and throw John under the bus, but I kind of am. Um, so John, a lot of the criticism that, uh, I hear when I speak to, uh, operators of different shapes and sizes is, um, famous phrase of, of big box gyms That they like it when people don't go to the gym. So they, their business, literally a call today. So the big box gyms, their business depends on people paying for their membership and, and not coming to the gym.

Sohail Rashid: And very, very recently in the last 7 days, Planet Fitness, uh, launched a, uh, we have integrated AI with our, with our CRM. And the backlash on LinkedIn was, oh, it means that they don't need to talk to their members. The big box gyms don't talk to their members. Now, I know you, I know how much the Gym Group is actually really, really dedicated to improving member experience and PT experience.

Sohail Rashid: But as a big box gym leader, I'm really keen to understand How do you see AI in improving or disproving that concept that big box gyms don't care about people coming to their gym? Serious question.

Jon Baker: No, no, and I, I'll always give you a serious answer, Sohail. So I certainly don't buy— certainly from our, our, um, sort of commitment is we, we, we don't want mem— we want members to be using the using the gym. And we have a higher percentage of members that are active than ever before. And the average Physiofirm member is also higher than it's ever been. And that's a deliberate strategy. We don't want people not using it. You know, the business doesn't rely on people not using the gym. How can we use AI?

Jon Baker: So, you know, in terms of that personal touch, yes, you're absolutely right. It will always be number one on our operational strategies. How can we improve the member experience? But I think as time goes by, less people, less percentage of people, if you want, want that direct personal touch from a human being, if you want. And that's where digital comes in. Some people want a personalised digital journey to be on, and that's where AI can feed into that as well.

Jon Baker: But listen, we've got, we We, yes, we have a continued commitment to how we can drive in-gym experience, but that doesn't just revolve around face-to-face interactions. More people in the gym now will have their headphones on doing their own thing. But again, yes, we are a high-volume, we are a high-volume business. But like I said, we have more active and more frequent usage than we've ever seen, ever seen. Super.

Host: Cheers for that, John. And one last AI question. I want to go to Jonny Grayshon on this one. So as somebody who's been in the trenches as a trainer, both in person and online for the past 10, 15 years, Jonny, do you see AI replacing you? Do you see enhancing you? How do you see playing out, Jonny?

Jonny Grayshon: Um, well, just to touch on what a couple of the guys have already mentioned, I think it is a little bit of a double-edged sword for personal trainers at the minute. So it definitely has the ability to make you more efficient, offer a better service like Tom mentioned with his nutrition plans and all stuff like this. Yes.

Jonny Grayshon: Um, but then he— then again, you've got the other side of the personal training industry, especially on like social media, or just almost turning into like, you know, they're just putting out massive amounts of information, what you can just get off Google or ChatGPT. And there's almost turning into, you know, everyone's starting to sound the same because they're just blasting out information and trying to be too, too educational. Um, and sometimes you can even tell when, you know, it's written by AI.

Jonny Grayshon: Um, so, so they're losing that individuality and They're almost, by trying to be too, too clever, they're blending in. So as I said, it's a double-edged sword. You've got the PTs who are using it to their advantage and being more efficient, being more effective, time-savvy, and all this. And then you've got the other side who are, who are kind of shooting themselves in the foot and blending in.

Jonny Grayshon: Um, but just to answer your question about replacing us, no, def— No, it's going to— if you use it properly, it's going to enhance you like Tom's already mentioned, and it's going to make you more efficient, going to free up time. You're going to offer— going to save you valuable energy not doing all the little crappy mundane tasks. If you use it right, it's going to leverage— it should leverage your business.

Host: Okay, so, Jonny, just so we're clear, on all your socials when you're in your budgie smugglers, that's not AI, that's real.

Tom Blackman: That is actually AI.

Jonny Grayshon: Yeah, it's not me at all.

Host: I did think you looked a little bit enhanced down below. So yeah, I did think that.

Tom Blackman: Yeah, I did.

Jonny Grayshon: And the moustache he's stuck on as well.

Sohail Rashid: Okay. I think Chris has knocked— I think Chris has knocked off about 10 years on his images over the last 3 months. Is that AI, Chris?

Chris Duffin: Say that again.

Sohail Rashid: I said, Chris, you look about 10 years younger when I last saw you.

Paul Richardson: Is that AI?

Chris Duffin: It is not AI. And that's a pretty common, uh, question I comment— I get when I— the rare times I am on social media today is, uh, the Benjamin Button, uh, effect.

Host: So, well, Chris, you can, you can do real, um, Shortly. Okay, next, next section, we want to talk about commercial gyms versus independent gyms, and we're going to lead in with John and Tom on this. So starting with you, John, how healthy do you think the UK gym industry is in 2026?

Jon Baker: Great question. So I think we have to say starting point is it's very good. If you look at last year's UK Active Report, it showed the highest ever UK penetration of gym goers, which was at 18%, or a member of a gym or a leisure club. So I think that supports that. And a bit closer to home, high value, low cost gyms, we continue to attract members. Our average membership in terms of volume of members is up Um, it's up around 5%.

Jon Baker: So we are around that million mark now after the first half of the year. So I think for me, yeah, it's— the industry's in good shape.

Host: Do you think, uh, John—

Jonny Grayshon: by the way, hello everybody, I had to step out for the technical issue.

Host: Um, I've got a question for this. Are you thinking people are joining for different reasons now than they used to be 5 years ago in terms of the industry? Do you think that's changed?

Jon Baker: Sorry, say that again.

Host: Do you think people are joining for different reasons now in the industry? Has that changed over the last 5 years?

Jon Baker: Yeah, I mean, I think we all know that, we all see the industry constantly evolving. I could probably boil that down to 2 areas. So, you know, we have, the Tune Group has this, it has that strong high-value, low-cost proposition that clearly meets it's a clear need amongst customers. But as a, as a whole, the fastest— you know, it is the fastest growing segment of the gym market as well. But with that becomes a growing focus on supporting an engaged team of talented fitness professionals to deliver that experience.

Jon Baker: Um, but one other thing that we talk about quite a lot is fitness IQ. Um, so the, the fitness IQ of the consumer is, is ever increasing, and I think even more so in the last 2 years, 3 years. Um, you know, we, we have seen that continued evolution. Um, so it does— it is even more important now that you've got great kit, you've got the right kit, and especially, you know, the demand for strength training in both, in both men and women.

Jon Baker: But I think really it's that, that high value, high value, um, and catering for a really growing John, one question.

Host: The growth you mentioned at the Gym Group, what demographic is that coming from? Is it 18 to 25? Is it 60 plus? Have you got the data on where you think that growth's coming from?

Jon Baker: Yeah, well, we certainly see Gen Z in particular. Is, you know, we did some, we did some, our own sort of Gen Z report last year. We found that 44% of Gen Z ranked fitness as their first or second spending priority, which is quite incredible really when you consider pressures on household, you know, household bills, household budgets. And that 44% was 6% up on the previous year. And there's also Gen Z talk about how important the social element is within that as well.

Jon Baker: So again, that was up to, uh, that was up 7% on the previous year in terms of Gen Z using fitness to socialise with friends. So that is definitely, you know, they're pretty compelling statistics to support that growing trend of Gen Z and how important it is in their lives.

Sohail Rashid: In short, one of the challenges I've heard in the sector about the Gen Z is retention. So my kind of question is, when that kind of follows through, does that have a positive up? So what I'm basically saying is, if you've got a cohort of new users, And as in new members, and there's a higher percentage of Gen Z new members, is that a pro or a con when it comes to like 6, 9, 12 months?

Jon Baker: So, so it's the catering for and attracting the Gen Z audience has been a deliberate sort of strategy for, for the gym group for some time now because of what the research is showing. How important fitness is for them. So what's been really important for us is to continue to adapt the physical product, the design, the layout, the type of kit, without compromising, you know, other members that are, you know, over 30, if you want. So we have seen a growing— inevitably, you know, our growth, average growth in membership across, across our gyms has increased.

Jon Baker: Gen Z has played a part, important part in that. But again, these are the really strong, strong cohort of people when it comes to fitness IQ, whether it's from AI, whether it's from social media, wherever it's from. They know exactly what they want from their gym and they're not really prepared to compromise for it. So you have to deliver on that, otherwise you will see higher churn. We don't see higher, higher— we don't see higher attrition from Gen Z.

Jon Baker: Um, but I think it is important for us as a business to make sure that we, yes, we see an opportunity with Gen Z, but we cannot compromise on our overall offering.

Sohail Rashid: Um, so— I wasn't asking it. Yeah, I wasn't asking it in the sense of, um, sorry, Paul, just one sec. I wasn't asking it in the sense of kind of like, um, uh, a Gym Group issue. It's like the broader issue of Gen Z acquisition of stuff, as you know, Paul, is they're very fickle. So their loyalty is less. That was my question, really. Sorry, Paul.

Paul Richardson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get that, Sal. And I think that's, you know, from my Gymshark days when, you know, we rode the wave of Instagram. That was the kickback from when the, the, I'm not saying Gen Z, whatever the crowd was at that time, were not using Facebook. So they stopped using Facebook and went onto Instagram and then they'll go to something else. So I think Gen Z and, and, and the like are far more fickle and far more, but far more knowledgeable.

Paul Richardson: Well, they think they're knowledgeable and think they know what they want, but I think sometimes they see that many things coming at them, they actually don't know what they want. Um, but I'm a little bit interested in, John, is the older crowd.

Sohail Rashid: Tom, sorry, sorry, but Tom, Tom, Tom, is there any chance you could put yourself on mute because your, your background noise is really loud? Sorry, mate.

Paul Richardson: Yeah, so John, um, yeah, how have you found You know, your membership on, I'll say older crowd, I'm not picking any numbers here because I'm an old person, but that interests me because they are more sort of measured, obviously a lot more tech savvy now than they ever used to be. And how's that affected your membership? Because I think they would probably be members that would stick and, you know, If it's a good service and everything else.

Jon Baker: Yeah, I think that plays into, you're absolutely right, Paul. You know, however we word it, the older cohort, they are more tech savvy and we are, you know, we are a tech-driven business. Everything's joined online. You know, there's an app there with growing functionality. And so the fact that they are more tech savvy is helping overcome those barriers to them joining. But again, you know, that particular audience want more of a personal touch. Tend, they may join as not being a member, not knowing what the experience really is of a high value, low cost gym.

Jon Baker: So they need more support, may not have been a member of a gym before. So that's where the, that's where AI comes into it in terms of freeing up time and giving our frontline teams, you know, as much time as is physically possible to invest in the people that are inside their gyms. We always talk to our teams about that, you know, it's within the 4 walls of their gym is for them to drive that member experience.

Jon Baker: And there are definitely cohorts of people that require more not handholding, but more support, um, to get into their fitness routine. Um, but yeah, the, you know, the, the, the older demographic, they do tend to, once they've made that, it's, it's a stronger commitment from them when they do decide to join, which helps them stay. They tend to, tend to join with, you know, partners. They tend to join with their friends.

Jon Baker: Um, and they, they do tend to have more of the, um, they also tend to have that, you know, social experience as well and will engage with Teams more. Um, so it's a different experience for them, but it's important for us to try and cater for that, to make sure we do cater for that as well.

Paul Richardson: And I think you're spot on there with AI giving your guys the freedom to actually do that sort of thing. I'm thinking any company, large or small, that pushes that, I think will do really, really well because they, they will have loyal customers who will end up knowing what they want. And, you know, I presume you'll get onto longevity in a in a while, but that's, uh, when you get a bit older, that becomes far more important. Super.

Host: Just quickly now, on to a couple of questions for Tom while we're talking about the fitness landscape at the moment. Tom, running an independent gym in 2026, would you say it's getting easier or is it getting harder than before?

Tom Blackman: Um, that's it. That's interesting. I think it depends on who you, who you ask. Let me just turn my mic down a little bit. 2 secs. Is that any better? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, um, I think it depends who you ask. The— there's a lot of gym owners who are not embracing AI or even Facebook ads and, and aren't, aren't moving with the times. relying on like word of mouth and, and, and then basically just, just living in the, in the, in the dark ages, for want of a better word.

Tom Blackman: And for myself, I, I've, I've really gone into like looking into how AI can, can help my, about my business. I've done a lot of work on Facebook ads. I, I've, as much as I can, move with the times. Uh, now what I'm Independent gyms are limited in terms of budgets, um, compared to big gyms like, um, like the Gym Group. So we've got to be careful how we invest. And I, I think a lot of gyms are still thinking, let's just buy more kit and that will bring members in.

Tom Blackman: And to a certain extent, that is true. Like, members like new, new kit and everything else. But as John was saying, there's 2 distinct I would say areas that independent gyms should be aware of. The first is the very young gen— I think that's called Generation Z. I'm not up on the terms. That's sort of like under 30 age. They're more likely to be fitness orientated. They're more likely to be going to the gym. There's statistics. I was just trying to find them now on my thing.

Tom Blackman: There's statistics that show the actual pub and club usage is going down and drinking is going down, but going to gyms is going up massively. So that group, that, that age group are more likely to be going to gyms. However, I think as John was saying, they're more likely to be fickle and jump from gym to gym. And they like all the, you know, I, I think the term is like SoHo gyms with like, like LED lighting everywhere and fancy this and fancy that. They like a nice environment to train in.

Tom Blackman: Whereas on the other hand, if you get like sort of 40s, over 40 group, They're more likely to be loyal members, stay with you for longer, not move, not change. And they're less interested in like fancy things. However, getting them into the gym is a lot harder. And I think the gyms really haven't picked up on this yet, as in where are they focusing their effort? Where are they focusing their attention? And I don't think they really know because maybe no one's guiding them. as to how to market themselves.

Tom Blackman: And so you see their adverts are basically just get first month for £10. And that works for like places like the Gym Group because Gym Group has like 100, whatever, many, many venues. You want to analyse this, it's like, it's the McDonald's effect. If you go to a town, town you're new to, you know that you're going to get the same meal at McDonald's wherever you go. So McDonald's is like the same everywhere. Now the gym group is sort of, and all those big commercials, drop in, drop in.

Tom Blackman: So you know what you're going to get at the gym group. Even if, you know, I'm not meaning any offence here. Someone said, oh, the gym group's not as good as like an independent with all kitted out, but you know what you're going to get. Whereas with an independent gym, it might be kitted out better, coaches, you know, people who've been doing it for years, but because it's an unknown element, you don't really know what they're about. So you're less likely to take a risk on them unless you know 100% what they're about.

Tom Blackman: And just saying, yeah, we'll give you £10 this month, that works for big commercials because you know what you're getting and you're getting a discount. It doesn't work for an unknown element for independent gyms. And I think their marketing and the way they're dealing with their customers is just not progressing as fast as like the big commercials have really embraced a lot of what John was saying. So I think it depends on who you talk to. For me, our business has never been better. We've got more members, we've got more, more attendance, higher attendance.

Tom Blackman: Um, everything is going good compared to, say, like COVID times, which obviously is way bad then, but before, just before COVID So we're okay, but a lot of gym owners aren't because they're slowly getting eaten up by the big commercials in their area and rightly so, not doing the marketing and promoting their USB. Yeah. Yeah.

Host: Do you both, Tom and John, do you both see the fitness industry— we're talking about 18% penetration of the UK population into gyms now currently— do you see that figure rising year upon year over the next 5 years?

Jon Baker: Yes, we do. And I think for a couple of reasons when you compare it to Um, you know, other parts of Europe where they're, um, maybe up in the 20, 24%. Um, there is still a way to go to reach those numbers. But I think also when we talk, we keep talking about Gen Z, um, they're more, a more active audience than ever. That's only going to continue as they, as they get older. And then the next generation, I'm not sure what we call it, behind them seem to be following similar trends.

Jon Baker: And then we, we may get onto the topic of, you know, weight loss medication and GLP-1s, but we see that area as a tailwind that is, you know, opening up more people to the need to have a fitness lifestyle to support their, to support their, you know, to mitigate muscle loss if you want. So there's more opportunity, more people coming into the market. That maybe, maybe wouldn't have if it wasn't for that, for, for that, that had to ring. Cool.

Host: So I'm going to hand over to Callum now. We're going to talk about the, the new— the elephant in the room, if we want to call it that, or the biggest positive to ever hit mankind, which is peptides, GLP-1 medication, and where that's going to take the fitness industry. So Callum, if you want to go ahead with that one.

Host: Yeah, so this will be one for Chris. Um, I know this is a big area for yourself. So are GLP-1 drugs one of the biggest changes we've ever seen in health? Is it one of the biggest positive impacts? Has there been anything close to this?

Chris Duffin: So, you know, thinking about this from the gym perspective, if we change our mindset This is, I believe, one of the largest potential growth opportunities in the field. It is. And so many people are addressing this from a fear mindset standpoint of like, I'm going to lose work. This is infringing on what I do. GLPs lower resistance. They don't build resilience. Okay. That is just, key in understanding that mindset, because that's what we do in this world. We build resilience.

Chris Duffin: Just because weight is the primary metric that a lot of people look to see whether I've had success in the gym, it's— it doesn't mean that you're healthier. It doesn't mean you're stronger. It doesn't mean you're better conditioned. You're more mobile. You have healthier joints. You have a higher VO2 max. You have more muscle. You have better bone density. Like you can lose weight and still be insulin resistant, sarcopenic, weak, inflamed. Right.

Chris Duffin: But that tool to help that individual lower that resistance, and then you come in and you can deliver, like I said, what they prior looked to as, you know, that's the hard to be, that's the primary metric, but what do they really want at the end of the day? It's not really the number on the scale and getting them to focus on these key drivers. You know, those things that I, you know, that I mentioned that are going to be maybe beyond that. Like, what's my, what's my energy? What's my vitality? What's my longevity?

Chris Duffin: What's, what's my health? What's my functionality? How do I measure those and bring those to the highlight? And that's what we do. And that's what we provide in this industry. And I mean, it is simply like, it is right there in the medical prescription that GLPs are supposed to be accompanied by weight resistance. Like, that is medically in— that's in the literature. And every medical provider providing GLPs should have a partner in this realm that they're also involving.

Chris Duffin: And we need to be out and working with those providers so that if they're not the experts in the exercise side of that, like to be able to be that resource, like I am the companion to this, like that is like this whole thing frames and you're going to have a massive new audience that coming in to be able to deliver these life-changing things that you can now deliver and help them focus on seeing those other things because That resistance, that one piece that they've been struggling with has been removed.

Sohail Rashid: So Chris, Chris, so just to pause, just because I can't stay quiet for too long, as you can probably tell by my animations. So the, the, the language that you were just using then, Chris, okay, about energy, longevity, healthspan, movement, like all those other secondary benefits, right? Those only come after the first one. So I wouldn't say a lot of people— No, no, in terms, in terms of behaviour, right? Having spent 15, 20 years in this kind of space of consumer fitness, right?

Sohail Rashid: If you market those as the benefits to somebody, speaking really frankly, that is overweight and doesn't feel like they belong in the gym, those are just words and noise, Chris. Okay? They are. Yep. Because I've got friends and family that don't relate to those words. I've also got friends and family that have gone through 6, 12, 18 months of treatment on GLP-1, and now they're doing fitness races. They're doing strength training because energy, longevity, healthspan. So influence. But, but, but the point, it breaks down the barrier, Chris.

Sohail Rashid: My point was, I agree with everything you're saying and you know I do, but what I think changes the sector completely is that step change of that the scales are coming down. I feel like I belong, right, in a gym. We shouldn't underestimate that emotional barrier because that then opens up the rest of the stuff. Chris?

Chris Duffin: You're absolutely on point. Like, they thought weight loss was the finish line, and it's really the starting line in this journey. And they've gotten through that starting line and that barrier because a lot of people, like, I'm not ready to go to the gym yet. I'm not in good enough shape to walk in there. Like, that is a barrier. We may not see that because we're so far removed. We've been removed from that for decades, right? But that's the case with a lot of people and just the struggle of moving there.

Chris Duffin: And appetite suppression isn't coaching, right? So, this is an incredible tool and there's so many other things that kind of play a role. Like, The ability to— when we start getting into some potential disease or other states and the impact that GLPs can have independent of weight loss that can help improve the functionality in that gym. So many things are holding certain sets of populations back. Let's take mast cell activation, for example. They can't eat and gain weight. It's a whole different set of audience, right?

Chris Duffin: Literally, like tirzepatide or primarily that one, because the 2 receptors both affect both the GIP and the GLP receptors. Like, you have instantaneous in hours with a microdose, 1/10 of the standard starting dose, you'll bring that down. Now, they can tolerate food. Now, they can actually gain weight and add muscle. I mean, complete opposite of how we think about GLPs. Right. We've got all-cause reduction in cardiovascular events. Like, we've got so many other pieces that come in here in different populations that can be positively affected that.

Chris Duffin: Now, there is a— when it comes into that companion piece though, with that clinical provider, you know, there is that side, the negative side that I see in the clinical space of it's a completely different approach than we take. It is, what is the max tolerated dose? Like, what's the max dose that we can get people to, you know, that they can tolerate versus we want a lot of times what's the minimal effective dose?

Chris Duffin: What's the minimal effective dose of cardio training, so on, that we can deliver results so that we can continue to add on that in the future? The same thing here. And that may be a conversation, you know, to, again, you're not the clinical provider, but to have that feedback back that direction because Again, we don't wanna crush people's appetite so that they're not taking in the protein, they're not taking in the food, not getting the results and able to, to realise those things.

Sohail Rashid: But, but when people, but Chris, but, but Chris, starting line.

Paul Richardson: Yeah, Hail, I think, I think that, I think Chris, you've got it absolutely spot on. I think the thing for me about GLP and the companionship, and I think you've got it spot on, and creating that community is I think the biggest problem we're going to have with the people that are doing it is they're going to be using a drug that is going to make it easier to lose weight. And I am absolutely all for it. I think it's probably the most strides we've made in, in the medical side for a long time.

Paul Richardson: But putting muscle on and all the other things that go with it is hard work. Yeah. And I think that you're going to use people who are then used to doing something that was easier because obviously they've tried dieting, they've tried this, they've tried that, and it's a lot harder. Using a GLP, whichever one you use, makes it a lot easier than getting them to in the gym and to eat the correct foods and the correct diet to build that muscle up and get everything else right.

Paul Richardson: I think that's the biggest challenge because again, you know, it's— we all know, we've all built muscle, it's not easy. It's not easy. It's a long, a long journey. I think that's our challenge. How can we get that? How can the gyms, how can John, Tom, and, you know, Jonny there, how do we get the, the, the cohort that's doing this to want to do this? Because I think that's, that's the thing that's going to be the challenge, the biggest challenge in my book.

Sohail Rashid: The point I was, the point I was about to make, Chris, is that I don't know what it's like in the US. I'd love to get your, your, your feedback on this, Chris. But my perspective is every single provider of GLP-1 in the UK promotes how, how many kilogrammes of body weight you can lose in how many months. You look at Boots, Lloyds, Pharmacy 4 U, Med Express, that's all they're promoting. Like speed of weight loss. That is going to change, but that sells at the moment.

Sohail Rashid: And the problem that we have, Chris, is people are prescribing milligrammes per week to accelerate weight loss over months because that's what sells. Because we have 3, 4, 5 generations of trying to lose— and you know this better than most people, Chris— fat loss supplements. I mean, that has been the fitness industry. John, you know this. Jonny, how many PT clients have you sold over body transformation, fat loss? Tom, how many people join your gym? Miles, everybody on this call, fat loss has been the gym industry for about 20 years.

Sohail Rashid: And that's why everybody saw GLP-1 and said, oh, well, we can't now sell Our product because there's a better way to lose fat loss. The problem that we have, Chris, bringing it back to you, is that everybody's still selling GLP-1 as how much weight can you lose over how many months? And therefore the milligrammes, the risk, the osteoporosis, bone density, skeletal muscle, all the things that we're talking about, the risk goes up, but the downward spiral looks better. Chris, that's our problem, I think.

Chris Duffin: Not that people are not going to go to the gym, but that, but that summary of this argument again, and I can't hear everything that you're saying, Sohail, unfortunately, but building off of what Paul said, it takes time and it takes discipline and it takes work to build muscle. But we are expecting these people new to fitness to instantly get that. We need to go in and do just that. We need to go in and do the work to culturally change those new entrants and the clinical side of this.

Chris Duffin: That means having those conversations, ensuring that we're approaching it in the right manner. And this is going to be a transition. This is going to be where, where we are as an industry. And we need to be building the stage and setting that cultural transition for people to understand those things. They start coming in and go, man, I feel terrible that I only lost 2 pounds this last week. I wanted to lose X. Well, how do you feel? How was your workout? How was your recovery? Like having those conversations, not what's the scale conversation.

Chris Duffin: Oh, hey, you hit a PR. You're feeling great. How was that plan in your, you know, are you, you know, how you feeling at work? How you feeling in your home life? Are you feeling more resilient? Are you recovering better? Did you have a great, did you have a good weekend because of this? How are you? What are your energy? Like, we need to be having those conversations.

Chris Duffin: We can't go, you're, you need to spend years of work and discipline to build muscle and build these things, but we're not going to, we expect to not have to do that to explain this to you. So I think we need to take that same framework. We need to build this. We need to put in the time. We need to make sure that we understand how to have that conversation.

Chris Duffin: And that can have— this has the potential of, yes, transforming so much of the negativity of what our current environment, which I could get woo-woo on all the negative impacts on our body and stuff, but let's say ultra-processed foods and the lack of physical work and sunlight and the normal things. This is a tool that can help counteract that. And, but there's a lot of other things that need to happen here and we need to do the work to help bring that cultural transition into play, bring that awareness with our clients.

Chris Duffin: So just like they're going to need to do the work, we need to do the work on educating and building that.

Jon Baker: I also think that I do think I agree with everything. It's a great conversation because it's clearly a big a hot topic, a hot topic in the industry, and it's no different for, for a gym group. But I also think gyms, um, that, that are recognising this trend and this growing need, um, for people that are going on this medication for, for genuine reasons and should be on it. Gyms can't just sit there and expect people to come through the door.

Jon Baker: And actually, for people that are going on this medication, Um, because diets haven't worked for them, exercise hadn't worked for them. The, the prospect of, right, I now need to start strength training and build muscle, and that's going to be really hard work, that's really quite frightening for some of them. Um, so, so as a, as a gym business, whether you're a national chain or an independent, you know, I think it's the same, it's the same question, is how do we get them through the door?

Jon Baker: And, and then once they're through the door, um, we need to help them go on. We need to help them go on that journey. So we've gotta, you've gotta, we've gotta make sure that everyone that works in the frontline in the gym has a level of understanding and education and training on, on GLP-1s, how to spot those side effects, how to support with nutrition. And it's also, it, it's also not just, um, new members that are coming in, it's existing members that start start a weight loss medication journey.

Jon Baker: So there, there are different, different parts of that journey. It's how do we accommodate them? How have we got dedicated educational content in the app, or have we got, um, strength-based classes that we're making sure they're aware of? So I think it's— it— I think, I think as gym operators, regardless of how big or small you are, you can't sit there and think they will come. For us to take advantage of that opportunity, we, we need to be very proactive with it.

Jon Baker: I also think going back to, say, your point about, listen, for, for, for businesses prescribing this medication, weight loss is the hook. It's a very clear hook. It's the obvious sell. They are, there's a lot of talk about how tightly regulated this, this industry is in terms of who, who is prescribing it, how they're prescribing, the support and education that they're giving. Uh, people, but, but I don't think it's, it's consistent enough.

Jon Baker: Um, we, we all know of, there are stats out there about how, how, you know, more people are getting in, people are going on GLP-1s, there's an increase in their level of spend on fitness, more people are joining gyms off the back of it, but it's not enough. And these regulations clearly need to be more, more consistently applied. We, we will all know of people that are on this medication, start on the medication and should never be on the medication. And, and that's, that's the, the black market, if you want, of this medication.

Jon Baker: And that, that's, that's personally a worry for me because that could damage the reputation, the, the overall credibility of everything Paul's talking about, about how life-changing GLP-1s can be for people that need to be on them. So I think there's a big responsibility here for the, for the gym market to Be proactive to take advantage of the opportunities there. Personal trainers as well. Um, you know, this isn't something that should be treated as a challenge to their business.

Jon Baker: This is a new cohort of people coming into gyms that need to be exercised, need to be strength training. Reposition yourself as a PT to maximise the opportunity. So there's so much that everyone needs to do, but everyone needs to be proactive to take advantage of the opportunity. it will not land on our doorsteps.

Host: John, just one question there. Would you consider, or do you think that in your business model, that having GLP-1 qualified trainers in your facility would help you deliver that?

Jon Baker: You mean people who have done certified qualifications in GLP-1s and— Yes. In the next— modification. Yes. Uh, 100%. Yes. So, and, and this is clearly something that we're progressing with. Um, what, what is important for us, look, we have 2,000 personal trainers. We need to create what we have to have. And, and there's, there's inconsistent and varying views of the GLP-1 world from those 2,000 personal trainers. That's something that we're tackling. So we have to create a baseline understanding of the opportunity, but then also how to support people on GLP-1 medication.

Jon Baker: From there, we could, we can continue to educate people, and that will include, inevitably does need to include credible GLP-1 or weight loss medication as a whole qualifications. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, we need to have, first and foremost, we have to have our treat, our teams with the knowledge to support people on the medication. You can't just have content in the app. It's not enough. It's a kind of suite of support.

Jon Baker: You know, we need to have dedicated, you know, all our new members get a kickstart session, but again, just having it, or traditionally known as an induction, just turning up for an induction as a GLP-1 user is not enough. We need to be, if you're a GLP-1 user, we need a dedicated kickstart section for you where that personal trainer knows this is, this is what, this is what, this is my appointment. They're, they're on, they're a GLP-1 user. This is how tailored my session with them needs to be.

Jon Baker: So qualifications and training plays a huge part in this, probably the biggest part in it.

Jonny Grayshon: But do you not think this needs to come from the level above? Because you're all talking about, which I agree with what everyone's saying, totally agree. But you're all talking about the percentage of GLP-1 users that do want to get healthier and can see the benefits and do want to come to the gym. But there's also a percentage of GLP-1 users who have got never any intention of doing any kind of health and fitness. They're just using it as a get out of jail card. Yeah.

Jonny Grayshon: And, and I think the regulations on, on all the, you know, the support for these people is, well, they're giving it out too easy, and then they're not even, you know, there's no support to go with it. So there's no aftercare. There should be some kind of progressive plan to get them into a gym. There should, there should be tighter regulations on who can get it, you know.

Sohail Rashid: So, Jonny, on—

Jon Baker: Yeah, totally agree.

Paul Richardson: Until someone gets sued, I reckon. Which is normally the way it happens, you know, someone gets sued at one of the big farmers at some point, then the, you know, the SH1T will hit the fan, I reckon. I think that's exactly what I was talking about earlier. You know, you sort of got a good cohort of them that it's come easy to do, easier to do though. And they just might not see that. I think the ones that will, will be far more dedicated.

Paul Richardson: And I think, John, from you, this is where AI will come in to be able to free your guys up to do more stuff. And, you know, whereas, you know, personal training, sort of AI-based or online, will not benefit these guys. They will need— or girls— they would need the personal touch to get this across.

Paul Richardson: And somehow, you know, making this a community in some way will be difficult because, again, you know, the likelihood of a lot of people wanting to put their hand up that they've used it and not just being, you know, on some magical plan will also be a challenge, you know. Um, so the community side, I think we'll actually struggle with a little bit.

Sohail Rashid: But I think it'll be, uh, Jonny, Jonny, I think, um, you've probably met enough people, as I know for a fact that Chris has, that have been on TRT for many, many years as, uh, young 21-year-olds, 25-year-olds, uh, and doing it because they, they'd like to label TRT. I know for a fact that Chris helps so many people that have been on TRT for 10, 15, 20 years and fucked their entire hormonal imbalance.

Sohail Rashid: I don't believe for a second, Jonny, I don't think we should kid ourselves that they're going to be mass abusers of weight loss drugs, which are disproportionately high to what we've seen. in TRT and testosterone and steroid use over the last 20, 30 years. That's unavoidable. I think our job is to educate what a good outcome could be. I know, Chris, you're itching to speak. I'll be quick. Uh, a good outcome could be compared to what we've all seen in the bodybuilding and, and, uh, the gym industry for many, many years.

Sohail Rashid: Tom, Chris, I'll let you guys, because you guys are far more closest to me.

Chris Duffin: So, yeah, to that point, like, that is a big part of what I do is working with people in this industry that are, you know, trainers, well-known celebrities, so on. But they've damaged their health in this, you know, in this fitness industry. And we correct that a lot of times with peptides and supplements. The— I just want to make a key point. Everything that we do in this world is literally doing the same thing that peptides are. So, peptides are not like a drug like testosterone or or thyroid medication. They are a signal.

Chris Duffin: And guess what we do? We achieve results by sending almost the exact same signals via different methods. So, that could be AMPK through endurance exercise, some fasting, making sure we're training in a low glycogen state. mTOR through mechanical loading, through making sure that we've got protein like leucine, resistance training, PGC-1 alpha, like zone 2, high-intensity interval training. Like, these are all like signals that— so, there's a— we're talking about peptides or GLPs and calling it a drug, but it's a different class. And, we literally doing the same thing whether you realise that or not.

Chris Duffin: So, that is something I think that we in this industry need to help educate around that because you can also, if people are using peptides beyond GLPs in a cyclical manner to do different things, you wanna make sure that you're pairing what we're doing with exercise to match that same phasic structure for, from a training standpoint.

Sohail Rashid: So, so, so, so, so, so one thing just before, sorry, just to jump in. 'Cause I, I imagine Jonny sat there going, I, uh, like 250 gyms, 1 million members, we can't talk about peptides, grey area, blah, blah, blah, right? The one thing, the one thing I will just say categorically is if GLP-1 has done anything, it has made people that would always say, I'm not injecting myself with steroids, feel really fucking comfortable with injecting themselves with something. And I think, John, that is game changing.

Sohail Rashid: Like the fact that they are comfortable injecting themselves with something that hasn't come from an NHS doctor in their millions is something that we can't just go, oh, well, yeah, well, people, people aren't going to be— no, no, they are. They are. They categorically are if they see the weight come down. Sorry, Chris. Everybody.

Chris Duffin: It's peptides have been to, to this, like what CrossFit was to barbell sports, you know, 15 years ago. all of a sudden something that was completely off, like general, like way too many people are way too comfortable, you know, jumping on somewhere and buying something and injecting themselves. It kind of, as somebody in the industry, I'm like, this is a problem.

Host: Jonny, just quick one with your clients without breaking any confidences. How, how much have your clients engaged with you and asked you questions around it and almost put their hand up silently going, I'm taking these things. Is it common?

Jonny Grayshon: Uh, so I've, I've had 3 male clients that have definitely openly discussed and taken GLP-1, and for, you know, for a short, short term, maybe 2 months, as to use it as like a springboard. Um, And obviously we discussed pros and cons, and these, these are clients who have, you know, religiously trained for years, 5 to 10 years, and religiously been stuck. Um, and it, and it, and it was positive. It was a positive experience. And then they've come off it, and then they've maintained, if not continued to improve, uh, lower weight loss.

Jonny Grayshon: So out of, you know, 60 studio clients There's 3 guys that have taken it.

Sohail Rashid: 3, 3, 3 guys that told you? You what? Yeah, I said 3 guys that told— 3 guys that told you?

Jonny Grayshon: Yeah, yeah. I've trained my— I've trained my clients for, um, I've trained about 80 to 90% of my client base for about 10 years, so you know, I'm pretty close to them and they've gotten— they definitely discuss it with me. Um, and then in terms of the women, one woman's recently joined who decided to— she was taking it and lost 6 stone and then stopped taking it and put that money towards personal training. And just like we're all discussing here, she wanted to then, you know, do, do the right thing for the right reasons.

Jonny Grayshon: So out of, out of all my clients, there's only been one woman who I heard on the grapevine that was taking it and didn't discuss it with me. Um, I think, I think she probably felt some kind of guilt or shame.

Jon Baker: That's interesting, Jonny. So your experiences, you find that men, men on this, on, on GLP-1s, are more open and happy to talk about it?

Jonny Grayshon: Yeah, I don't know if it's because I'm a male trainer. I mean, I've got about 50% 50/50 male or female, and all my sessions, all my sessions are mixed. Um, the average age is around mid-40s, so, you know, educated, wiser, older people, you know, no real, no real reason to, to, to shy away from the facts. But yeah, just, that's just how the stats fell. 3 guys and 1 woman. Right.

Tom Blackman: I think from looking at like an independent gin's point of view from the GLP-1s, the, um, I, I, I think it's a good thing. And the reason being is if you think, you think, and, and I know Jim, you've done a lot of, lot of research on this, this one of their sort of KPIs is people now are measuring attendance as the indicator of Uh, uh, if someone leaves or not. The churn rate is always going to be the biggest, like, like, your bucket.

Tom Blackman: You get more members in, but if your churn rate's high, you're going to lose members faster. And, and I think I saw a stat on Gymboo that they measure that as one of their KPIs. You know, correct me if I'm wrong. But, um, but from my perspective, if more people, and I've seen this in, in my gym, if more people are using GLPs, they're losing weight, they're feeling better about, about themselves, and they're attending a gym.

Tom Blackman: it's only going to make them attend the gym more, come more often, put more effort in because they're starting to see the results. The— I've worked with clients over 20 years or so. I only have 1 or 2 clients now, as in personal training clients, that when people start to see results, that is the biggest motivational kick they can get in terms of, look, now I'm starting to see something. Now I'm really— now I, now I really want to eat better. Now I really want to lift more weights.

Tom Blackman: Because the worst thing you can see is no progress. And one of the reasons, things we've started to do at Menage, done it for the last 5 years since COVID is we've got like a medical-grade body scanner and it costs about like 7 grand, I think, something like that. But it gives a reading which is better than the off-the-shelf blood scales. And we've used that for a long time to show people's body composition changing when their weight has not been changing or they can't see anything in the mirror just yet.

Tom Blackman: And that's been a massive motivational boost to people. And I'm always interpreting stuff for the, for the members who come say, oh, Tom, can you have a look at this because I'm not seeing any changes? And we look at their body scan and you can see the changes happening, just not visible yet. Whereas GLP-1s, if they're used correctly, can give that, give that a good speed up. And combined with the body composition scanner, it does show them progress. But what's interesting, we're talking about the muscle loss and everything else.

Tom Blackman: The, the body composition scanner will show muscle loss as well as weight loss. So people are losing weight, it's great, but oh, actually I'm losing muscle as well. Well, now we have the conversation. Yes. Now let's correct that. You're losing weight. Great. That's the hard bit done. Now let's make sure you don't lose any more muscle and actually gain muscle by giving you higher protein, more resistance training, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So from my perspective, I think it's really good. Yeah. the people are deciding to use these things if they so choose.

Tom Blackman: And I agree with, I think, John, you made that point. There's some people using it just because they can't be bothered to go to the gym and they just want to lose weight and they can't be bothered to eat less. So they're going to get a drug, peptide, whatever, to do it for them. Those people aren't our market. They're the people who are, you could tell them over and over again that going to the gym is going to benefit them and they're just like, nah. Yeah.

Tom Blackman: So concentrating our efforts on the people who actually are going to use it to a benefit, that's where my effort's going to go. I'm not going to try and convince someone who doesn't want to go to a gym that's using GLPs, oh, it's going to be better for you. I'll be like, nah, just, just the people seeing it and want to train. Yes, now we can help you and we can help you a lot better and we can work with you.

Tom Blackman: And one final point that for independent gyms, we can't afford to have a GLP person on site at all times. What I would probably look at is like a monthly partnership meetup. We do this with blood testing as well. We have a person that comes in every month to 2 months. They do blood testing. We could do that for GLPs, have an expert that comes in, certified expert, clinical, whatever.

Tom Blackman: They have a conversation with say 20, 30 people in a studio, give them advice, and then we do some sort of partnership arrangement where there's some sort of mutual sharing of profit or whatever. that would be where an independent view would go because we couldn't afford someone to be in-house, but we could afford to have someone coming in once a month, maybe giving advice, helping people. And then from that, feeding that into personal trainers. Like, this person's got this plan, you can help them with this, uh, personal training plan.

Chris Duffin: Tom, that is a perfect model to go with because you shouldn't be like We should definitely end that conversation. Peptides in a blind without blood work is absolutely asinine. And, it doesn't make sense. Because the same, people want to look at, again, here's X result I want, what do I take to get X result? And, it doesn't work that way, right? It's to add muscle, to lose weight, to— what are the underlying issues that we have and what levers that we need to pull.

Chris Duffin: If I've got somebody that's got metabolic dysfunction, they've added a lot of mass, they've got insulin resistance, the approach that I would use over the 45-year-old Paul Richardson that has been pushing himself so hard, staying up late. I know this isn't Paul, but we'll use a different avatar here. Please. Staying up late, having late Having drinks, like Christmas dinners, not sleeping enough.

Chris Duffin: And, you know, that, that person, if I use the same protocol and it's pushing them hard and we're sending these strong signals, these, you know, exercise signals to that body, they're going to feel good, feel great for a couple of weeks, and then they crash even harder. So like, it's, it's very much like treating it like exercise in this phasic structure of knowing like, Hey, a day off, you need a day off to recover and you need a day off to train.

Chris Duffin: Like, they're both, but if you've got to know what signals we need to send at the right time, and that's a really great model, Tom. I highly recommend anyone, you know, in that approach doing something similar if you're able to do that.

Paul Richardson: I think there's also, you know, Tom, now you talk about scanning and doing this and doing that. I think for me, one of the, the fail-safe methods of knowing that you're doing better in terms of, you know, from the GLP or that, is getting stronger. It's just you can lift more off the floor than you could last week. You know, that does not lie.

Paul Richardson: You know, I've been to lots of different scanners, DEXA scans and whatever, and you know, you can question all sorts of things, but you can either lift, you know, I'm going to use 100, it could be 50, could be 20, you can either lift that off the floor or you can't.

Paul Richardson: And, you know, when I've seen people— when I built the Gymshark gym and we had some people come in there and, you know, they'd never really trained before— the look on their face when they did that deadlift of, of 100 or a squat of like 80 is just magical. And I think that for me is one of the— you can't lie about that. You can either lift it or you can't lift it. And, you know, I think if that was one of the measurements in the gym to build a community, that's like a failsafe.

Paul Richardson: , etc. But just as a general rule, if you can lift better this week than you did last week, you've made some progress. True.

Host: So guys, this really encapsulates everything we've been talking about, everything we've built it up to. Uh, I'm gonna play it towards Jonny, Tom, and John, but feel free to jump in. Is becoming a PT still worth it now in 2026?

Tom Blackman: Uh, I'd say yes. Um, and, and the reason might be different to whatever else is going to say. Um, I was a PT before I opened the gym. I still am PT now to a couple of clients. I think especially what it is at the moment Because there are so many like online PTs, um, you see this all the time, I live in the Dubai life and 10K months, that's all dream things people are selling. The online community is getting quite saturated in terms of online coaches.

Tom Blackman: I think in terms of the in-person PT, that is going to move more towards being a specialist service because as what we've discussed before, you can go on ChatGPT or Claude and say, give me a workout for this. I've, I've— this is my experience, this is my stats, whatever. Give me a workout to go into the gym. It will even give you YouTube links to go and do that sort of stuff. And, you know, that's where a lot of online teachers are actually.

Tom Blackman: That's what they're giving their clients from what I've seen people coming in the gym with. If you're a really good in-person trainer and you, and you know your clients and you really can deliver that really personal service and, and you're not an idiot, you can have a conversation, you can be personal. people and made people enjoy their session, that's gonna go a long way than, than just, here's a workout, let's go and do the reps.

Tom Blackman: And I think it will become more specialist as more people move towards these sort of AI models of personal training stuff. That being an in-person PT is gonna be more of a VIP service. And I think PT should be pricing themselves that way, not trying to compete, oh, it's £20 a session, you know, £150 for 10 sessions, whatever. No, it should be, my service is this, it's a specialist service. And, and that's how I think people should position themselves. That's just from what I've seen in my experience.

Tom Blackman: I'm sure people will disagree or agree with me.

Jonny Grayshon: Yeah, totally. No, I totally agree, Tom. And, and the way the fitness industry is growing, especially in the UK, would probably be a little bit behind America, you know, with things like all the fitness races, HYROX, all this stuff that's giving, giving fitness a more, more— putting it more in the limelight. Um, there's a, there's a reason— there's more reasons for people to train now, now than ever. You know, 20 years ago it was just go to the gym and bodybuild, and now it's, do you want to do jiu-jitsu? Do you want to play sport?

Jonny Grayshon: Do you want to do a HIROX? Do you want to, you know, just look better? There's, there's more reasons to niche down as a trainer and, and get into something really specific. And then if you couple that with the, the, the small group PT model that's growing, it makes a really good business model to maximise your time. You can, you know, train multiple clients in 1 hour. You can get a community going who are all on board with the same goal.

Jonny Grayshon: It's just, you know, it's a lot different these days than it was when I first started, which was what, 12 years ago?

Host: Tom, uh, John as well, what sort of qualities are you looking for when you're hiring PT? So you bring someone into both the commercial space and— what are the skills and qualities that are going to point out to you to make it worthwhile? Yes.

Tom Blackman: Well, yeah, I think the, um, that, yeah, definitely agree with that, John. I think the, um, the major thing I get from, uh, and it's in, it's in the dig in any way. The, when people, um, PTs come over to Ministry from say a, a group or Pure Gym or something like that, the, the, the biggest criticism they have is, and this might be because they're not, not putting themselves out there much, is that the, the PTs are saturated.

Tom Blackman: There's too many personal trainers in the gym and they're all fighting for the same, the same bowl. We, we limit the amount of PTs we've got at Ministry, you know, in a sense because we limit our membership as well. So there's a certain amount of members that certain amount of PTs can service. So we, we generally look for people who are aligned with our goals.

Tom Blackman: And we have like 6 principles, which I won't go into them, but it's, you know, it's like enjoying yourself, being part of a community, but lifting people up, that sort of thing. When people come in, they might be a great PT, but if there's no charisma there, if there's no, um, you know, there's no like, there's no willingness to get involved in the team and, and, and do a bit, making sure they're doing their social media, making sure they're tagging their stuff so that we can tag them back and share them and be collaborators.

Tom Blackman: If someone is not, uh, someone who is on, on social media is not embracing that, we probably won't have them as a PTT because it needs to be this partnership where the gym promotes the PT and the PT promotes the gym. And because of that, more members come in and more PT clients become available. If you have someone who is like an old school I prefer the term dinosaur, where they're not on social media. Oh, don't bother with that, then you hate it. Well, that's free marketing. So that immediately is a red flag for me.

Tom Blackman: If you're not willing to be out there and be pushing yourself out there, what— why would you— why would I want you on the gym floor where you're probably not going to talk to anybody? So it has to be part of the team, has to be part of our ethos. And because we're a small gym, we have this, this mission thing which you have to align to.

Sohail Rashid: Um, so So, Tom, I'm gonna push back on a couple of points. So Bronze works with thousands of PTs. We've got thousands of PTs that we've worked with. And one of my— one of our biggest frustrations has been that they'll follow the James Smith personal training model of spending £2,000-£3,000 on how to improve the lighting, for social media content to make their Instagram better, which has got 350 people, 125 of which their friends and family that'll never buy a PT.

Sohail Rashid: And they pay rent to be in a gym with 3,000 members, and all they need to do is talk to the members. So my first issue, um, is I think there's too much weight on the assumption of you're going to win business through a personal brand. Create your product first, know who your customer is, and then the personal brand comes next. And I say that, Tom, for founders, right? Founders that say to me, how do I, how do I get in front of more investors? How do I build my personal brand?

Sohail Rashid: Make yourself successful first before you think about making your personal brand successful. It's the same advice I give to PTs That will say, well, I don't want to do small group training because it devalues my product. How many customers have you got? Four clients. One's my sister, one's my brother, and then there's two of the people I give a discount to. True storeys. Okay. Talk to people because personal training is personal. There's enough people in the gym that are doing things incorrectly that you just need to speak to. So that's my number one thing.

Sohail Rashid: And the second thing, I'm sorry, Tom, I picked on John earlier, so now I'm picking on you, right? I don't think that personal training should be elitist, and I don't think it should be limited to people that are prepared to pay a premium price. And the reason why is because if I look at the amount of people I know, and I'm allowed about 500 people, I guess, so I know lots, lots of people. How many of those people have actually done personal training? Not many. How many people would have benefited from doing personal training?

Sohail Rashid: A lot of them. It's not accessible enough. It's not inclusive enough. The number one objection for people not wanting to do personal training, and John knows this because I share the data with him, is not affordability. Yeah. I'm not ready for it. That's the number one reason when you speak to a member about personal training. I'm not ready for it. They feel like it's something that they need to get ready for.

Sohail Rashid: So I actually think, Tom, just to challenge you here, I think you need to make personal training more accessible and inclusive for anybody at the beginning of their fitness journey to know that this is for them rather than thinking it is unless you're prepared to pay a premium price, this is not— it's not accessible to you.

Tom Blackman: Well, there's a few things there. Um, not every product can be accessible to every person. The— and, and, and personal trainers still have to earn a living. They still have to generate enough income there, you know. I put— yeah, I like training people. I like and I'm sure Jonny does as well. And I'm sure if we've all been personal trainers, I'm sure we love training people. But do we like training people for £20 an hour or £40 an hour? I know which one I, I prefer.

Tom Blackman: Um, um, and in terms of making it accessible to everybody, there is models you can do which are, which are lower priced, which are more group-based. I don't agree with the thing that group group training is less beneficial. In fact, it's more beneficial because the motivation, you got loads of people together, everyone doing things together, that is in itself a massive motivator. And it's actually more interesting, I think, for their personal trainer because they got a few people to work with and they can really get people together.

Tom Blackman: So group training, and this might push back against traditional thinking, group training shouldn't be discounted. if it's, if it's providing the result people want. Look, some people are good at one-to-one, as in they need one-to-one. Some people need group training in order to get them moving. It's up for the, the personal trainer to decide when they have an interview with that person what is the best thing for them.

Tom Blackman: In, in terms of more, more people would get benefits of the benefit of training, I think if more people had personal training, yeah, I think more people would see the benefits of having a Mercedes. If everyone had a Mercedes, it was really cheaper. But not everyone's going to get a balloon, unfortunately. You people spend their money on different things. And I'm not going to be the one who says, oh, you're spending this much on Netflix, you could afford a PT. But, but we make those decisions in life.

Tom Blackman: What is important to us in terms of what we spend our money on?

Sohail Rashid: Yeah, but, but, but, but so, so So, so strength training is something it, it, it, I say to people, would you go learn to swim on your own or would you get someone to teach you how to swim? Would you go pick up a guitar and learn to play guitar on your own or would you get someone to teach you to play the guitar? So when you go to a gym, the reason why you don't do strength training is cuz you don't know what to do. You're scared you make a fool out yourself. Yeah.

Sohail Rashid: and you'll injure yourself. So why should that be limited to somebody that wants to spend £180 a month on personal training? And that's, that's my issue.

Tom Blackman: The quick point, Tom, quick point.

Host: As an industry, are we guilty— and I, I'm part of the industry, so I'm saying this— Are we guilty in not showing and demonstrating the true value of personal training? Because you know that old saying, when value exceeds price, money changes hands. Do we have members who still see a personal trainer as rent-a-friend, rec counter?

Sohail Rashid: Do we have—

Host: are we demonstrating the life-changing, long-term benefits of what a personal trainer can do? Yeah. Are we still, are we doing that well enough? Yeah. Okay.

Tom Blackman: So there's a couple of points. The first about swimming, uh, guitar lessons. Well, swimming, you might die if you don't get that right. So it's probably a good idea to have someone show you how to swim. Guitar lessons, that is, that is something that I think when you go into a gym, people think I'll go to a gym, I'll just use the equipment. And there's always Dunning-Kruger effect of, I'm going to a gym, I've seen a few YouTube videos, I know how to lift.

Tom Blackman: So people are more likely to go into the gym and have a go at it than they would buy a guitar and, oh, just pick it up as I go along. So I get your examples there, but it's the training in a gym for a lot of people is, I'll just go in, I've seen some YouTube videos, I'll crack on with it. And also get Miles's point that I think that a lot of PTs do themselves right out of business. By not demonstrating why their product is worth the money they're charging.

Tom Blackman: That I, I've coached people and people have spent like £1,200 on an 8-week programme with me. They got great results, but I've had people saying, oh, that's not worth it. And the, the people who said that's not worth it are the people who've literally asked me the first question, how much do you charge? And I just go, well, I know, I know, I know from that question that you, that you're not really one of my clients because you'll be asking what the results I can get, that, that'd be the third thing I'll be discussing first.

Tom Blackman: So people who are more price orientated, who ask how much do you charge first, they're probably not the best clients. But you can preempt that with content marketing, um, information about the products— sorry, the results with clients, how you got them, making sure people understand that what you're doing is not just a rep counter, not just someone who is going to stand there and um, and tell you how to lift, lift the weight. It's someone who is going to get— actually get you from A to B.

Tom Blackman: So I think more of your point there is that a lot of people don't appreciate personal training because they don't know the value with it. And the problem with that is that there's too many people charging £20 an hour who've just come out of PT school who don't know what the hell they're doing. And so that's, that's dragged the relationship down because a lot of people who spent £20 on a PT expect expecting a really cool service, have not had that service, and so their perception of PTs is this really crap £20 an hour PT.

Tom Blackman: So unfortunately, the industry does it to itself by lower charging, lower rates, competing with other PTs to try and compete in this small market and lower their prices rather than increasing their quality. That drags it down, so people's perception is the PT is rubbish. So they don't want to charge, they don't want to pay the extra money. There's one view of it.

Sohail Rashid: So now, now, now this conversation is getting a bit interesting. So I think it's a debate about whether it is an accessible service where there's enough people that actually want it, where there's enough people who know the benefit, and whether there should be more variation and variability for an entry point, which is, which is, Tom, by the way, the PT industry's problem in its entirety.

Jonny Grayshon: I think the pre— the people that are trying to price gouge you or, or, or knock you down are the ones that don't value their, their own health and fitness in the first place. They're just coming in for, you know, I'll try it but I'm not prepared to pay anything for it. Like Tom mentioned, I think there's too many PTs that are trying to be an expert at everything, you know, jack of all trades.

Jonny Grayshon: So on the, you know, you see on their Instagram bio, they're a kettlebell expert, they're a strength and conditioning coach, they're a nutrition expert, they're a fat loss expert, you know, they do everything. But if you do everything, how can you be an expert in anything? Therefore, how can you charge for it? So then they're charging, you know, £20 an hour, but the guy down the road's charging £15 an hour. And then so the new guy charges £10 an hour. It just devalues the whole thing.

Jonny Grayshon: But then you've got the other PT who only, you know, I train busy professionals. Like, well, everyone, everyone's a busy professional. Like, what you on about? And then, and then, you know, they try and charge high-end prices and offer a really naff, naff, um, naff service. Yeah. But as, and coupled with the fact that, you know, you've got egos, egos from men saying they don't need a PT because that, you know, they're men and they don't need to be told what to do in the gym.

Jonny Grayshon: And then you've got women who are probably maybe a bit scared and intimidated about hiring a PT. So it was all different. And then, and then you throw AI in the mix and they've just Googled or gone on chat for a new gym programme and they think they know everything. So All that combined creates a real issue for PTs, and, and it's very few and far between that the good ones stand out, um, and, and can break through all that, all that information.

Paul Richardson: Yeah, so looking from the outside in and being around the gyms for a long time, I think it's given itself a bad rap, PTs, because, you know, we've slowly seen it go from someone with probably decent knowledge to basically anyone who has gone to the gym and I want to be a PT now. Um, and I think that industry will probably— I hope and I think it will change because I think that people will be built more demanding, expect results.

Paul Richardson: As you guys have both said, it's, you know, rep counters, someone to talk to, blah blah blah blah blah. And I think that that, that sort of that area needs to change where it is something that's based on results. But, you know, every industry is the same, whether it's, you know, someone selling t-shirts, you know, someone will sell them cheaper than you, than someone else. But, you know, it's quality that counts generally and comes through long term. So I think it's just industry changing.

Paul Richardson: And, you know, John, you've got many, many PTs, and I'd imagine you've got some really, really good And some not so good. And hopefully, you know, you're trying to blend those through. I think training of them, I think getting them to be part of the community within your business, and I think a combination of them being socially aware and socially adept to be able to talk to people.

Paul Richardson: Um, I think they just need to put more effort in because I think a lot of the PTs that I've come across, they're just doing it almost because it's something to do. And it seemed like a good idea. And £15 an hour is more than I can get somewhere else. Whereas, you know, you want to, with ambition and want to be good and do good things with people.