Why In-Person Personal Training Will Be AI-Proof — Sohail Rashid

Elon Musk said that becoming a plumber, you'll make more money becoming a plumber than a lawyer than any other profession in the AI world. Being a personal trainer will be exactly the same as being a PLUMBER on today's podcast. really excited to have Sahil who is the founder CEO of Brawn and I know he's got a very very interesting story and he's got some really exciting projects he's going to share with us. So welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks for having us guys. >> Welcome. >> Nice to meet you. >> Well let's let's let's kick off with an obvious starting point which is what's been your journey to this point to uh where you are with Brawn and some of the other projects you have. So I started uh in propt tech. So I started building products using data and digital in 2011 for the estate agency and the financial services sector.

So I was a property lawyer uh and I was completing property transactions thinking estate agents earn too much money. >> Yeah. I think people will agree with that. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I thought, how can technology um not disrupt, even though that's an overused term, but make it easier for the home buyer and the home seller? So, uh I built a couple of products.

First first thing I did was I built the first ever property marketplace um on Facebook. So, this is before Facebook Marketplace existed. >> Wow. >> Uh so, I built the first ever property app. Um and that version one allowed you to sell your house privately. So as a competitor to kind of eBay and Gumree for private sales. Uh and then I opened it up to the estate agency market.

So we then listed about 35% of the properties um stock so for for sales and letings sold that business um in 2014. Uh and then in 2015 uh the business that bought mine I set up view my chain which um sounds really boring but for nerds like me super interesting. So if you're in a if you're in a property chain which is typically between three and four people long to find out what the top of the chain is doing and have to call the conveyance of the estate agent um and that's a pain and it would take a few days and in those few days something could happen. So we created the first data platform that allowed you to log in and see what everybody was doing in the chain. So it reduced fall through rates, sped up completions and for me that was before brawl the most successful thing I did.

And that was a moment where I was just like you can take an idea to market and turn it into a business and there's nothing stopping you doing it because I came from law to social media to kind of pure estate agency. But during that period um I was a competitive powerlifter. So, uh, I moved, not fully moved, but I had a house in the north and the business was in Milton Kees. So, two, three days a week I was in Milton Kees. Had a young family.

Didn't want to have a second life in a different city with a se separate kind of social circle. So, started kind of competing um in powerlifting initially just for fun, which lasted about two days and it became super competitive. Um, just so I had something to do on an e. I know it sounds silly, but I wanted to look forward to doing something that was outside of work. >> Yeah. You you're separating yourself from your work because then it makes it a little bit more enjoyable to return back to the work.

So, it's not all life consuming >> and something that you're kind of really emotionally connected, something that you really give a [\h__\h] about because if you if you don't, you won't do it. Particularly someone like me, I'm all in or not not interested at all. So I fell in love with the numbers uh of powerlifting really really quickly. Like I got addicted to my personal progress. Um and that was just in the training.

Um and then when it came to competition, it was um just the biggest shock to me was the first competition I did, everybody came around afterwards and no one said, "Did you win?" They said, "Did you get your numbers?" >> Right? >> And everyone holds their PBS like a badge of honor. And it's all about beating your own personal best. And for me, I've always said this, no pun intended, but I didn't realize how strong the strength community was. >> How big is the competitive nature of powerlifting? I I've always been interested in strongman powerlifting. I mean, the community itself, like you say, is there any individual competitiveness?

So, on the day, are you watching people? Have you got anybody in your view that you're trying to beat or is it just yourself? >> I mean, I think it's the best sport that no one really gives a [\h__\h] about. That's what I say about Bucket. Cuz unless you do super in powerlifting, you realize that no one really cares. >> I think once you get that onesie on, you realize that everyone's watching, you just do the lift. >> Yeah. Um yes, you do go to competition day with someone that you're trying to beat.

Um and you create a pretend rivalry in your head. >> Uh and that is used to push yourself. >> Um >> but most people are chasing PBS. Yeah. Because every competition and you can only do two or three a year max, you're looking to set a new number. Whether that be a certain weight at a weight class, so I'm going to drop weight and keep my strength. >> Yeah. >> Or whe that be I want to hit like I mean >> so that that's quite interesting. So do you you all your training is based on getting a PB on the actual day.

It's not like something that you might have pulled in training and then you're trying to hit those numbers. You're always trying to get your actual personal best on the day. You can always tell a difference between a wannabe powerlifter and a proper powerlifter by the edits of max out in the gym. >> Yeah. >> Right. If you're maxing out in the gym, then you're a pure hobbyist and you just felt like you can load away gone wrong, but you only really peak once or twice a year in reality in powerlifting to be a competitive powerlifter. the rest of the time you're you're doing me cycles, you're tapering down, you're going for volume over sets, like you're basically building the blocks up to that day because of the stress. >> Yeah. >> You if you're maxing out all the time, like you said, you're going to get hurt. >> Well, you you'll go backwards. Your nervous system's fried, isn't it? >> Yeah.

I mean, you you see I mean, the main reason why I can't compete anymore is is the the how taxing it is on your CNS. You cannot work in a high performing role and do powerlifting because you're doing two things that are super taxing on your CNS. Yeah. >> And in terms of for example the deadlift you will do your max deadlift which will be >> 95% of your one rep max absolute max probably probably closer to 88 90. You do that about 14 days out from comp. >> That is so that you don't take anything away from the actual comp day. So it's very very taxing.

You're right. Depending on whether you're natural or not, depending on your training experience, depending on your genetics, the heavier you are, the less you can peak. If you're lighter lift, you could probably do more in a year. >> Do you feel like powerlifting is one of those sports where it is fundamentally more beneficial to be enhanced just for the recovery process? Because I I've had this argument with before where you talk about these natural power which is great but is the enhanced element only going to produce your longevity in the sport? Because there's a time scale for everybody of being strong.

It was a very short window of your time as an athlete where you're going to be strong and agile. And if you're not looking after yourself, especially back in the, you know, years and years ago, there was no uh routine to maintain and actually look after your body. It was just hammer hammer hammer. So, is enhanced in that sport more beneficial? Do you think? >> I think that first of all, I don't completely agree that there is a finite time window for strength. uh you can continue building strength for a lot longer than you can in other sports because it's not about endurance.

It's not about longevity. It's a single plane movement and it's about being more and more proficient at that movement. Injury and time away from training is what will impact your ability to progress. So, it's not as short as people think, which is why you get a lot of people peing in their 40s and 50s. Mast's powerlifting is phenomenal now because if they can keep going, they'll keep getting stronger and they'll keep hitting PBs. >> Is that from the stuff that you've done early on to cement that later on though?

Because the problem is if you're quote unquote being a dick in your 20s and you're throwing weights around with no real plan. When you get to that stage, is the damage already done? >> Well, a few different things. So, when I I I started competing quite old. I was 30, which is quite old for for PA. was the oldest in my group um by about nine years of four of us that competed at the same time three four times a year for for eight years and I got very strong between 30 and 34 which is when I first became a British champ and I started getting injuries and one of the reasons why is because my tendons cartilage ligaments they don't get uh enough time to mature uh in in in relation to how quickly you can put on strength and create muscle muscle. So you can put on muscle a lot quicker than than tendons, ligaments, and cartage.

And therefore, I I still have issues now. So that was one thing. And some of my mates like Wy Song, who is now kind of one of the best in the world, he's he's gone on for 12 15 years and continue to to put on strength. But the world now in Palin is very, very different because of social media, because of Gen Z's obsession with strength training. You're seeing 21 year olds lift 300 kg regularly on a deadlift.

And we never saw that at comp. We'd see that occasionally and now I don't too >> taking gear at too young of an age, >> right? >> Um jumping too aggressively in their 20s. I mean trying to hit an all-time max in your 20ies when you haven't peaked. Your body is still growing and so they're smashing the big numbers mainly because of social media mainly. Um, and what's going to be really really interesting is to see are they still athletes in their mid20s and 30s and what the state of their bodies are then.

And I and I don't want to I don't want to scare manga. I I don't want to say it's all bad because obviously I live and breathe the the benefits of training. >> No, but it's true. >> I don't know where it is long whether it's got that longevity. The problem is like I remember growing up and 100ks you bench press was the pinnacle of like if you hit that you've made it two >> but now plates aside get totally gra >> standard and it's almost like a toxic culture where if you can't bench two plates you're not even a man and then you've got >> toxic about that >> I don't know >> people who can do it we know that >> but yeah it that is the big problem with social media right it creates but it does it in all forms of fitness. You know, you got people with a certain aesthetic and they saying how they live and it's these extreme diets, extreme lifestyle and nine times out of 10 you're appealing to people out there who think that they're upn so they are not meeting that level. >> Yeah. Yeah.

To answer your question about enhanced, um I I think that it's a gray area on whether it's beneficial or not because it's purely down to the genetics of the individual >> because some people have levers. So I'm naturally very good at bench over the deadlift because I have as my mates will say T-Rex arms and so my range of motion is is less. Yeah. >> So that has a bigger impact than whether you you take game or not. Um, and it's not like bodybuilding. It's not like you're going to get vastly kind of superior strength gains based on what you're taking. >> Your training, your technique, your natural levers have a bigger bias towards numbers and what your genetic ceiling is rather than how much gear you take.

You'll be able to recover better. You put put on more muscle. Yeah. But you still got to lift a a a piece of iron in a single play movement. um and do it in an efficient way at a a weight class as well. >> Yeah, that's that's the part I was going down just the recovery process in general because even from a muscle perspective, sometimes the translation in powerlifting is yes, putting on muscle is good, but in terms of translation to power output, it's a much different process to going in the gym and working for hypertrophy. Right. >> Yeah. >> So, the recovery process, I just imagined it would be more beneficial.

This is what makes me laugh now where they got the enhanced game coming and they said, you know, like Thor's moved over to the enhanced games like he was going [\h__\h] natural for years and it's just like everyone's like, "Oh yeah." So now he's going to get on gear. Like are you [\h__\h] joking? Look at the size of him. >> I heard the box got to go on gear as well soon. >> Yeah. Yeah. He needs to I think I think it's about time stops being so natural.

Yeah. >> Fil could use a bit more >> bit more size look a bit better or else. So, so, so the powerlifting then obviously became a bit of a mini obsession. So, when did powerlifting become brown? >> Well, it wasn't a mini obsession. It became my personality. It became my identity.

And and and I think that's a really important point uh because um I talked earlier about people holding their personal best as a as a badge of honor, right? So, I went to an all-white grammar school where I was the shortest, skinniest, weakest, and fattest at the same time. Uh, and all my mates were kind of natural athletes in comparison. And when you get into your 30s and you hit a physical peak after having kids and you're getting stronger and you're looking better, but not in in an arrogant I look good on holiday way, but generally like, I found a hobby and I'm really good at it. You realize it actually becomes part of your identity.

Like I was doing great stuff in in the business world and my mates and my my dad's mates for example. Oh, when's your next competition? I like that's just a hobby. Like I've just built this thing that didn't exist that's like doing really really well. Got loads of customers and all you want to know is how much I'm lifting.

You realize actually becomes part of your personality. So that um that is really emotionally strong and I realized that actually that mental strength that it gave me is something that was massively underrated as a benefit of strength training. It's not about how much you can lift in the gym. It's about have you got what you came for and are you progressing? And I used to go train on my own in Milton Kees and I used to just think I'm like the master of my art practicing my art.

I mean honestly like it's it was incredibly therapeutic and when when I decided that I wanted to do something in fitness it was always going to be in strength because that personal connection and what what I got out of it. I remember in 2019 thinking you've got um that if if you don't if it's not on Strava it doesn't count. So there's a bunch of kind of middle-aged men that ah I've done a run I didn't put it on Strava I'm have to do it again and I thought Straa's won there. Do you know what I and it's got to go do something. >> Yes. >> And I thought for powerlifting, you're either trying to find people on Instagram or you go into a WhatsApp group for the comp and then you create a WhatsApp group coming out of the comp. Yeah. >> So, you've got that community, but it's existing across two different domains.

So, I wanted to create something that was a uh a social point for the digital community around strength training. So in 2019 I created Brawn W which at V1 was really badly named as the Straa for strength or the Instagram for strength and it was about connecting people um that always kind of wanted to know who was doing powerlifting and who was like them to inspire or aspire >> like it powerlifting has got parallels with running which I was just going to mention because you brought up straa everyone talks about what's your 10k time what's your 5k time what's your marathon time. Whereas in powerlifting, obviously, it's watch your bench, watch your squat, watch your deadlift. >> Yeah. >> And obviously, like you said, you you've you've looked at the parallels between, well, they use Straa, they use all different apps for tracking, measuring, and you thought there's a market here and that's how version one came along. And what was version two? version two. In 2020, uh when COVID happened in March, I was contacted by the Olympics committee.

Uh because if you work in tech and do powerlifting, you stand out because nearly everybody that powerlifting is either a PT or a gym owner. >> Yes. Yeah. You see one with a tablet. >> And we've heard you literally he was like, we've heard you've got an app. Can we use it for virtual events? I was like, yeah, of course. >> [\h__\h] So completely rebuilt the platform to a video sharing platform in the middle of co um took advantage of furow uh and we created a uh a virtual events platform that was then used for Olympic weightlifting and inclassing federation.

So we were the first ever virtual events platform um used by the IPF which got over 2 million uh registered athletes across 20 different countries to connect the strength community during uh the lockdown and international uh travel restrictions the country of international comps. We partnered with Chris Duffin and Kabuki uh and ran a a nontested uh palifting competition. uh partnered with Gym Shark, which is where I met Paul Richson, my my business partner, partnered with Alco, A7, My Protein, um and we we broke a record. So December 21, we had 1500 participants, 20 different countries, live streaming days. We took over Gym Shark's Twitch feed, broke their record, had 400,000 people. Uh we had John Hack, who's the pound-for-pound strongest powerlifter, fly over at that point.

Um and that was when we became really really famous in version two of Brawn within the strength community um as the platform for for virtual events. >> So you essentially bridged that gap between a sport that doesn't it's mainly a spectator sport and you brought it online so anybody could be part of that action. >> Yeah. >> UFC of powerlifting. >> I mean no one's ever called us that but I'll take it. >> I'll take it. So, so amazing success, property business, software, and now that's brought itself into the fitness world. What character traits, what what things about yourself can you attribute to the success to this point at version two across the property side and the fitness side? >> I mean, it's unhealthy obsession. Uh, yeah, you have to have business is really, really hard. really really hard and it's harder than anybody um really appreciates because it takes over your life. Um you have to be able to make insane sacrifices. >> Yeah, but you're just lucky.

That's the common thing from the public, isn't it? Or you're just lucky. >> I've got more failures than anybody. Uh and and and that's and and that's the truth. Um so it's funny you say success here, success here, success here. You ask anybody that's been successful, they don't look back and go success.

Do you value your fail? Because that's that's like the top tips of the iceberg, is it? There's all the stuff under the water. Yeah. >> Yeah. Question. >> Do you value your failures?

Cuz this is some I mean, we're very early in our business years, but I start to value the failures that you have because there's a learning point to it. So, of all the fails that you've had, you said you've made a ton, but is there any lessons out of that that you could have that helped you pay forward? >> Yeah, I mean, the to to answer both your questions, I think the the resilience is the number one the number one skill that you need to build and learn and harness and improve. Um, and I think that that that's my advice to anybody going into in into business. Um, and your failures build your resilience. >> Yeah. It's how it's how you come back from each failure in it and how you improve and make the adjustment to u to progress after that. >> Yeah.

And and and just to keep keep going. Um, I mean, Paul Richson, my business partner, friend, and and and mentor, he's got in his gym, do the hard things. Um, written on the wall. Uh, and that's what it's about. And I've learned so much from from him because he has he's seen it and done it all so many times.

Um, and when you've got someone like that who backs you when things aren't going right, you realize that actually that's where uh real resilience is built. So the number one thing is resilience because everything else like if you can't sell, you'll learn how to sell. If you can't come up with ideas, you'll learn how to come up with ideas. And if you can't do something as in like a skill in particular in today's world, you can go do it. But what you can't teach is resilience.

Do you know what I mean? People talk about drive and passion or motivation and yeah, those are all great traits, but if you get if you get knocked down and you haven't got that, [\h__\h] you. I'm still going to go do it. >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, you're going to get knocked down. >> Yeah. And if if you're not going to get back up, it's game over. >> And it's resilience.

That that is the number one skill. The more resilient you are, uh because what determines success are a bunch of variables that are outside of your control. timing, luck. I mean, those are two big theorists and then a hundred others. But you can't like timing, you can only make an educated guess and look is luck. Yeah. >> So therefore, you but no idea how far or how close you are from being success.

And by the way, ask any business owner like are you successful? They'll say no. >> Yeah. No matter how many wins you've had, you haven't got the win. There's there's no such thing as the big win where you're just going to be happy. >> No. I've talked we've talked about this before.

We talk about the happiest measurement is when you revolve your life around when I get to this point I'm going to be happy and then you get the realization after so much time is oh I'm never going to be happy. There's going to be just the next bit and the next bit because what point are you going to reach where you go I've got enough. I'm fine. Everything's done. I can close my laptop as well as if we can if you can let can you let me know when we out? >> Yeah.

Yeah. We're still trying to figure that out. But it's the pursuit isn't is it? You know it's you know the destinations are just that. They are destinations. >> Yeah. >> Everyone always says when they get to any kind of destination, they look back on the journey and the little micro wins and the little victories along the way, >> they get to the end of it.

I mean, I heard Paul Richardson ironically talking about his business journey on a podcast talking about Gym Shark. >> Yeah. >> And he sort of said every time he'd exited a business or got a massive payout, he was like, "Well, is that it?" >> Yeah. >> You know, it's Yeah. Yeah. >> But there's been there's been that a long journey behind that moment where you're like, "All right, well, tomorrow what's next?" >> I think it's easy to say when you when you've had >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Of course. Yeah. But I think one of the self criticisms I have um is learning how to appreciate the journey more and the process more. >> That that was just going to be my question that do you do you enjoy the journey even through obviously chasing the PBS? Um were you ever satisfied when you actually got the PB or is it same revolve back to the business as well? Is it always do you still enjoy the journey or is it an end goal? >> So there's lots and lots of parallel benefits uh and similarities between powerlifting and business >> like you you have to have patience.

You have to have resilience. You will fail in the gym and you have to have a a plan B and you have to have those micro milestones and if you don't have a plan then you you'll get nowhere. Do you think there's a lot of lessons learned during like a hobby and just having something like that transfers over like you just said parallel to business? There's so many little lessons just from doing it on a personal level from your training. >> Yeah. I mean powerlifting was one of the best lessons I had uh in terms of both parenting and business.

Yeah. >> I mean the the commitment to something uh understanding that that's your goal but that's not the finish line. There's a goal afterwards. understanding the setbacks, working around injuries. All of that is completely transferable to building resilience, having a plan, being methodical, and just having direction and clarity in in business. And definitely definitely became a better businessman through the experience of of of powerlifting. And in terms of kind of the failures part, I think it's it's the it's the biggest thing that is a difference between somebody who's um lucky in business and somebody who uh is a businessman.

So when when we look at these influencers in today's world and these mentors and these people charging huge amounts of money for for advice, I want to know what been your failures. one of the first questions that that that Paul asked me like he didn't care about what I've done that worked well. He wanted to know what's what have you done that hasn't worked well. And uh that that for me because I get a lot of people asking me advice. I mean generally it's like how can you raise money? How do you raise money?

And and and it's that's not where you should start. But if you if you're going to somebody for advice, you want someone who if you're if they're if they've had their back against the wall and they've come out of it fighting, that's what you want. someone that's really really been up against it. >> So, another question for you. So, on this Brawn journey so far where you're up to at version two, was there anything that nearly made you quit along that journey to this to that point where you've got to so far? >> I mean, the funnest period, the most enjoyable period was the virtual events. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um the the problem is I said this earlier, powerlifting is a sport that no one really cares about. So, there's no money to be made in virtual events for powerlifting.

But it was the most enjoyable experience. Um, and what what you learn is every time the business opportunity gets bigger and the further you win, the harder it gets and the less enjoyable it gets as well. So the in the first three years it was, oh my god, I'm like I've combined my experience and my passion and I've got all these kind of people like Chrisin I've always been a super fan. Christophin, founder and owner of Kabuki, world record holder of the squat and deadlift, lived out in um Portland. I've been to see him twice.

He's a mate. We kind of FaceTime on WhatsApp all the time. And he became my business partner in the virtual events for uh for for Brawn. So, it was fun. Got to meet and work with Paul Richardson.

Fun. Amazing. And then when business gets serious and when the states get higher, some of the fun fun goes. And to answer your question, Biles, the the the more it becomes a business and the less it becomes a startup, the less enjoyable it is and therefore there's multiple times where you do really struggle to enjoy the moment. >> Yeah. >> But if you've taken people's money Yeah. Everyone wants investment, but with investment become should come and does for me huge amounts of responsibility. >> Yeah.

And when you are a parent and you're a provider, huge amount of responsibility. So the reality is that becoming a business owner is taking on you're responsible for everyone's mortgage at the end of every month. You're responsible for kind of sacrificing the time that your kids want and your family want for a bigger purpose. And you got to make it worth your while. and you then got friends and family that kind of you talk to about what you're doing. All of a sudden, you're kind of responsible to them as well.

And the responsibilities get overwhelming. And I think that's something that people don't realize that the bigger the the company and the dream and the years of investment and the time and other people's money as well as customers, it becomes super super overwhelming in terms of level of responsibility. And that's where resilience at a different level needs to come in because now you're not just doing it because it's fun and you want to put on your LinkedIn or your Instagram that you're an entrepreneur and you're a CEO. It's like try writing it a different way. I am responsible for X amount of mortgages every month.

Does that sound sexy? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Does that sound cool? >> And did you um did you feel a dip? Obviously during lockdown when you did the virtuals. So was there a dip after lockdown once everything because I I did very similar thing.

So I set up an online uh business like a four-week training plan. It went all over the world. Same thing. the excitement were there. I didn't have an app at the time that were big enough to to actually take the entire members on. So I was chasing it.

But soon as the lockdown went that's when sort of that do you know like everyone were chasing the online stuff and then after did you feel like there were impact of dip of needing virtual or did that were a sticking point? >> It was it was it was quite strategic by us because um my mission and vision was to make strength training more inclusive and accessible. >> Great. and virtual events for elite powerlifterss doesn't fulfill that mission. That was an opportunity that was given to us because of co to make ourselves famous in a very short period of time. Right. >> So all of a sudden I mean so Eric Bloomberg who owns out in Sweden number one kind of arguably number one um manufacturer of barau and plates um obviously I'm having lunch with him and he's flying me out to Sweden because we're partnering with the IPF. So you become quite famous because of an opportunity. But that became the springboard because in 2022 when the gym started reopening, Alica introduced me to Third Space. >> Right.

Real. So all of a sudden I'm now in third space which is the the UK's, if not the world's kind of best luxury gym chain. So all of a sudden we were able to use that to actually start to get closer. But what we had to do in 2022 was get our technology in front of Genpop. Horrible phrase, but people that strength train for their health and their fitness. >> Yeah. >> Because and the science has now come out, but I strongly believed health span longevity.

Now, what you've got is bone density, menopause. We'll talk about GLP1 in a bit. But all of these mainstream health benefits for strength training, yet strength training is not inclusive and accessible. When people go to the gym, they don't go, "Right, I'm going to go over to the the plates and the machines." Now they know where the toilet is, the stretch area, the cardio, the classes, and the exit door. I mean, those are things that a new member knows.

They never get to weight training. So, the problem that we had to fix in order to fulfill that mission and vision was help people start to strength train safely. Y >> and make it more inclusive and accessible. So, in 2022, version three of Brawn, it was moving away from virtual events and breaking down those barriers in the gym to help people make that step trading. So coming out of COVID enabled us to do that and actually the timing was great because the gyms are reopening. >> Yeah. >> During COVID they'd used as you know used the opportunity to redo the gym, less cardio, more functional training, more strength training, more machines, more areas for women strength training.

So we then became an enabler to to to allow those operators to to kind of launch again after >> All right. It's interesting. I like I said I went in a very similar situation. We didn't have the follow-up plan quite as that's probably one of my failures. So >> yeah same as well.

What I think people found and and I saw this this trend was people during lockdown were buying spin bikes for the garage. They were out running when they could. They were doing hit workouts at home. The one thing they didn't tend to do unless they had a garage full of barbells and plates was lift. So we saw people coming back to the gym.

Things like spin numbers dropped, class numbers started dropping, but people were queuing more for racks, platforms, and actual strength training. And then we saw all the research coming out more and more. Ronda Patrick, you know, putting things out about obviously, like you said, bone density, putting out about predicted lifespan. >> How did you process? >> Yeah. With with with your degree of muscle tissue and everything else. So the strength training popularity and curve just seems to never end going upwards.

You're riding that wave. What's brawn looking like now? How is it how is it currently looking? >> So we thought that there was a problem in the gym operators world around personal training. And the reason why we identified personal training as being a key kind of cog in our wheel is that personal trainers are the pathway for people to learn how to strength train. And there is a shortage of personal trainers in the sector.

Yeah. Whether you're talking to a gym group and a pure gym kind of the the high value lowcost operators or whether talk to a third space go premium they have the same problem. Um we know cuz we talk to them all. So there's not enough good personal trainers and there's not enough personal trainers in any gym and there's not enough members using personal training for a variety of reasons. So we quickly identified that in order to be able to help more people get into strength training, we had to help that element of the operating model for a gym operator, which is helping personal trainers access more members.

And that's a really really tough problem to fix and it's been the toughest problem that we that we've encountered because look at how the gym operated model has changed over the last 1015 years. Look how social media has changed. Look how everything has changed but the PT model hasn't. How PTs win clients in the gym floor hasn't changed since 2005. It's the same model.

You've had the challenge of online PT being the place where PTS want to go and earn money. I live in Bali. I live in Dubai and had six clients and earn 180 grand if you believe everything that you see on Instagram. And that's harmed the market. You've had the reality of if you're working in a gym where the average monthly membership is 20 pound.

Yeah. >> Which is the highest segment of the gym market today and the fastest growing still. and you're trying to sell a product which is your oneto one at 40 to 50 pound an hour. Do those unit economics work in that demographic? No, they don't. So we were the first company to create a tech enabled small group training platform. So in a large operator, we got PTS in Pure Gym, we got PTS in gym group, they're now able to run small group strength training sessions where members are paying between eight and 12 pound per session.

There's four to six people per session. Yeah. So the members getting huge value for money. They're getting personal coaching at 8 quid, 12 quid, 15 quid. Still absolute bargain.

And the PT is increasing their utilization and also their hourly rate. But then it's getting access to members and it's helping members that are unaware of the benefits of PT because PT's got a bad rep as well. You ask lots of members, do you want a PT? I don't want to pay somebody 50 quid an hour now to count my reps. >> Rents a friend. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Rent a friend trainer. >> And And there's a lack of education and awareness uh from members initially on the benefits of personal training. Like would you go learn how to swim on your own? Would you go teach yourself to swim? Would you teach yourself how to play the piano or would you get someone to teach you? It's an interesting angle because it the problem could also fall back on the PT's education as well because again the certification process for personal training has not really changed again in years.

Um basically from the education point of view you still get all the handbooks about anatomy and physiology and maybe a little bit of behavior change nutrition and then how to write a program and that's it. Certificate done. See you later. Have fun with that. What they don't teach you is behavioral change in terms of teaching someone the value of something.

How to actually get on a person's level. How to change their life and also add it as a habit, not just a overhaul of doing. There's so many things that PTs are not educated on. So when they get put in front of clients, things that they've enjoyed doing is just a hobby to them. Oh, I like going to the gym five days a week doing this.

You should do the same. Convincing someone of that is the biggest challenge. And I think PC's education in general has lowered over the years because of social media as well because they've gained an idea of what it looks like. It's a glamorous career. It's the easiest thing you could do.

People's going to be queuing out the doors because they've seen how much I can deadlift. >> Yeah. >> But it's not the reality. >> I think PTS are a the instability of income for a young personal trainer is a real problem in particular in today's world. high cost of living. Yeah. >> Um and to get a stable income quickly within personal training is really really difficult. And most of my best mates are PTS and they're very successful PTs, but they are the outliers and they're the ones that have taken 10 plus years to build >> Yeah. >> a a business. >> Quick question for you. The ones who you mentioned there, what are the common traits of those trainers that's made them successfully in your opinion? uh resilience in personal training because I've got some friends that have flitted in and out and they really really struggled to to build a business in personal training. Um I mean I'm really really lucky and fortunate that I have uh two best mates Nat and Wy know of them both um who are met through powerlifting that are purists in personal training.

So, they never believed that their business was an online model and that they should commoditize their services through online. They have online clients, but that's cuz it suits the client, not them. >> Yeah. They can't get to them and they do the programming or what >> or they've trained with them and then moved away, but they still want that relationship with their personal trainer because if you're a good PT a bit like you'll see in barbering, beauty, cosmetics, there's a lot of loyalty >> loyalty guys and people forget about that. You don't get people that switch PTs or switch a bar unless you're a really bad >> people buy from people. >> Exactly. >> It's not always about the knowledge. It's about the person. >> Yeah.

I've still got clients today that have turned 8 10 years. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and and and that then that that then becomes a sustainable business. But it takes time to get there. And the average lifespan of a of a PT particularly under 90 days 12 months mean that not enough PTS get there that they never give themselves a chance. So these guys that are are super successful today and any PT will look at them and go, "Oh my god, that's what I want." I've seen them grind doing the pure gym shifts.

Do you know what I mean? Clean the toilets. >> Yeah. >> Being on that gym floor for four hours to have one conversation with a client and they've done the hard work. That's why they are where they are now. >> Yeah. I used to have to do 30 exercise for less when that was a when that were a thing. Uh I had to do 30 unpaid hours a week just for cheaper rent.

So I used to used to be cleaning around gym floor and uh yeah so I I did all the same thing and they used to book inductions in your time and then after a certain point then you could have say you were in for six hours you could book three of your own sessions in but then they stopped you doing that. >> Yeah. >> So then you'd have to do six hours unpaid and then I'd have to do my own clients after. >> Yeah. There's a theme there. Hard work. >> Yeah. >> Willing to put the hard yards in. >> Y >> you know you did the hours. You did the unsexy stuff. All your mates have all done the unsexy stuff, but they've stayed in the fight, stayed in the game to see the other side. >> Yeah.

But this is this is a dying trade because now if you look at the world today, you've got kids who are millionaires playing Fortnite. So the idea of hard work is seemingly less attractive because it's hard to convince someone that hard work will get you a result. Well, I have this debate about gaming with my kids all the time because I've got two incredibly bright boys and uh they're happy to have a debate with daddy and they'll tell me, "Yeah, but uh Mr. Beast earned 250 million last year and he's worth 2.3 billion and it took him two years to make a video that got 100,000 views and now he's done this. So, he can make money doing gaming.

And it's really really difficult to argue against that except for the fact that actually Mr. beast worked really really really hard for two years before he hit that level and actually whether we it's not our generation. >> Yeah. >> And when I grew up game sorry if you were gamers but gamers were losers when I grew up right but now gaming is is the norm and these people put a lot of work in. So actually I think there's an element of generalization because a bit like PT >> you might look at it from the outside and say well PT is really easy because you just log in and check it's like yeah that's 0.01% ignore 1% of the of the PT population. But go going back to the the new PT and the misconception they've got. Right. So so we work with predominantly new pts.

Okay. So our product I'll talk about the the the next version that that that we're launching. But our product is perfect for connecting a new member and a new PT where which is the problem. I mean that that's where the problem if you can fix that it compounds into a benefit. The problem with the new PT is that they will spend 1,500 quid on James Smith Academy or one of these other mentors which talks about your lighting, your social media.

Okay? If you've got 350 followers, 150 of which are your friends and family, what's the point of spending money to make your videos look like James Smith? You're not going to be the next James Smith. Okay? You're doing 16 hours in a gym with three and a half thousand members.

That's where your customers are. Learn to talk to people in the gym. Learn to help people in the gym. That's where your trade is. And the amount of PTs where I've had this very direct conversation where they think that I'm going to spend a load of money in my social media and then in six months time we go have a load of online clients.

Bring chat GBT into the mix where they commoditize your six months experience of personal training into a prompt. Where's the online PT model now? >> Well, we see we're seeing that change. I've I've predicted it now for three years. Uh and I've I've banged that drum repeatedly saying that there will be a change back to either hybrid or in-person PT. But the when we talk about the the problem you've just highlighted there and I've seen it in 30 years in the gym industry which is 30 years this year that if you can't speak to 10 people because conversations matter if you can't speak to 10 people a day in that 16 hours on a gym floor you will struggle to build a sustainable PT business.

And I've seen that repeated over 30 years. >> Well I'll give you a sound bite. So Elon Musk said that becoming a plumber, you'll make more money becoming a plumber than a lawyer than any other profession in the AI world. Right? Being a personal trainer will be exactly the same as being a plumber. >> Connection you can't replace, right? The future what is an AI proof business for your kids to go do personal training.

Why? because there is a macro change coming in demand for strength training because of GLP1. Okay. Y that will start to peak in 2028. Okay. You got retro as you know which gets approved in 2027.

In 2028 we're going to see mass adoption. We're going to see the cost of GLPS come down. >> Yeah. >> And the only health care solution to that is strength training and adequate protein intake. Agreed. >> Okay. the demographic that are going to be the adopters of that, the ones that need that help the most, which is not the bodybuilders that are taking it now, okay? It's the segment that's coming. They've never been to a gym before.

And if they have been to a gym before, they've never done 60 minutes of strength training every single week. Okay? They're going to have to do it. It will it will be prescribed. And what does that mean?

It means a greater demand on the gym floor for people to show them how to do it. Mhm. >> That is the opportunity that's coming. It's in person and AI enables it. V then removes the need for it. >> Yeah. So, augments and works alongside it.

But the inperson PT in your opinion is going to be a recession proof AI proof in >> personal inperson personal training. >> Yeah. >> Is a the recession proof business in the gym sector. And if I was to advise people what to do next, don't learn how to do anything that's digital. Okay. don't learn how to do anything that's workflow orientated which has been the mass employer over the last 10 years. Yeah. And the thing that has harmed personal training in the last 10 years, which has been online, is a thing that's now going to make it even more valuable.

Because if you can get an in-person experience, that's going to become more and more valuable than less valuable in a world where productivity is going to go through the roof, where demand on healthful longevity and need for strength training is going to go through the roof. Man, these are macro changes. These aren't kind of small behavior changes. These are macrolevel changes that happening in society and therefore in-person experience has become more valuable. Your personal health is more valuable and the need for strength training is more valuable. >> Yeah. >> And you can't teach yourself on YouTube. >> No, let's get out there PC guys.

Come on. >> But I I I would I would like to see anybody argue against that. That that that's where the opportunity >> it does make perfect sense. It does make perfect sense. some optate today because there's also all the conflicting opinions of PT is dead. That that is the word across the world. >> But describe a good gym. What's a good gym?

A good gym is a community and it's a good gym that's vibrant and it's a good gym because people enjoy being there. Okay? If you've got happy PTs, you got paying PTs, but guess what? You've got happy members. And I don't see enough gyms taking a PT first approach in their operations.

I think they're looking at the quality of kit which is great. They're looking at fads like Hyrox and we can talk about that as well, right? But are they doing enough to make it PT first, right? Where is that on boarding? And that's where the gap is and that's that's the next thing that we're looking at. >> Well, do you agree with this?

So, we always looked at the data in the in the in the gym industry and we looked at if you can get your members into classes, they will stay longer. I've always argued the same point as you. If you can get members into personal training, they will stay longer because they get better results, it's safer, they have community with the coach and they get the bug. So, I think if you can get more of your members into personal training, they will definitely stay longer. >> Look, classes are inclusive and I'll never ever knock anybody that's going to a gym and doing a class. But if you're looking to build strength, you're not going to get from a class.

If you're looking to learn how to do something safely, you're not going to get from a class. Yeah. If you're looking to improve your health and longevity, you're not going to get from a class. If you're looking to get a beasting and feel good about yourself and burn a few calories, go to a class. That's fine.

But it serves a purpose. Community, social connections, I get it. But it doesn't do those other things. >> So, you mentioned it. We're going to use the word now. We're going to use Hyrox as an example.

So, that obviously has been great for community. It's popular, but it doesn't tick the boxes you've just mentioned in terms of the doesn't build your strength. It's not going to have that strength effect on longevity. >> Well, I won't mention any names, but all you to do is look at the ex bodybuilders now selling highrocks packages where the shirts off you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Saying that, look, follow my H high rocks package.

They >> look like this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Go go go my app. Wear represent because that's what they all wear, right? They didn't build their body from running.

They didn't build their body from 10K. They wrote their body for being on men's health and following a amateur to pro bodybuilding cycle for 10 years and then realizing actually I can make more money by calling it highwox and selling a program. >> Well, the effects advertising >> they call it a mimicking effect, don't they? >> Because you're selling your your outcome as something else to what it actually is. >> The the thing so once again I'm not knocking anything that gets people moving. And the one thing that Hy Rocks has done, there's a few things it's done really, really well. Right. The events are world class.

Okay. I've done it. I went to Copenhagen. Yeah. >> Did it. Loved it.

Right. Absolutely loved it. It's for runners and I'm not a runner, >> but it's a as an event, it's a world-class event. Yeah. >> And as a model, they can chuck out worldass events at that volume because it's a slick slick business, right? >> Yeah. But I really really struggle with the obsession to have Highwalk so overly invested on the gym floor.

There's a new gym that's opened in Halifax where they've spent booger all their weight kit from what I can see. Right. And an absolute fortune of their uh budget on their on their Hy Rocks Performance Center in their gym. Okay. And I'm going >> I know I know which gym it is cuz I used to run it when it first opened when it in 2003.

I think >> it's that gym. I know which gym is it? >> Yeah. Yeah. You and your mates from the other uh chain. >> Yeah. The other chain when it was another chain. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You know exactly what I'm about. And you can see where all their budgets gone. It's gone to 35% of their their floor space which is dedicated to Hier Rocks.

Okay. And I'm going, who's your customer? Okay. Because I see the people doing Hier Rocks, right? They're rip the tops off.

They're competing and there's about six of them. Okay. It's not inclusive. It's not accessible. Yeah. and it is obsessed over one particular kind of men's circuit training, which is great, but I don't I don't get it.

I I don't understand how it grows the fitness community and how it helps get more people. >> It grows it grows egos. Another note, doesn't it? I feel like >> there's more memes now about Hierrock's ICO on social media. >> Yeah. >> Mocking it. >> Yeah. >> Because I think I think the the initial wave has happened. That's why I like the, you know, the original wave and it was sort of like it were a competition where anyone and everyone could be involved. And I love that.

Like it made something almost like CrossFit but like a simpler version where it didn't matter if you were over 50, if you were in your 20s, like everyone could compete, do the same thing, and everyone had this enjoyment out of it. I feel like it's just got into a thing for purely social media now. Like even on that, >> that's one of the memes, isn't it? Would you would you do high rocks if you couldn't video it? So yeah, without >> without his shirt.

Yeah. Yeah. >> I think the main point that you made about obviously all the means that are negative against it. The beautiful thing about social media and this is why it's going to stay around is negative press is still press because people are still talking about it and it doesn't matter whether it's a piss date. You see like no one's really defending it. No one's really coming out and trying to go against the memes.

Why? Because it's still popular. Because it's still in people's mouths. >> Well, look, I think it's really difficult to progress in in high rocks. I can I know five to six gym owners, fitness directors in in in in various different gyms and they've done high walks once or twice and then I don't I don't get it. But they'll promote the [\h__\h] out of it because it's in their gym.

Okay? It is all self-purpose. Okay? PTS do it so they can sell high rocks. They don't do it because it's mean they're either bodybuilders, powerliffters, or marathon runners.

They'll do a high rocks because it helps them sell. Okay. >> Yeah. fitness uh directors do it so they can help sell the justification in their gym. These gyms have now spent a significant amount of their annual budget on a license fee for a brand to be associated with Hyrox to get more members into their gyms. I would argue would you would should should that money have been spent on new members and pts? >> Well, I've done I've done the experiment so I can give the data and I've reversed it. Yeah.

Right. It's like um you're just making the fit fitter. Great. But that's not your problem. That's not your retention problem.

That's not your new member problem. I could tell you what, none of them are buying PT either. So, how's that actually creating a more sustainable business model for you as an operator, >> but they spent so much money, they've got to justify it. We've got to talk about Hyrox now. >> It's a glamour thing though, is it? Like the name Hierrox is so popular now, you can brand it anywhere and it brings eyes on your business.

And I get it from a promotion sort of um model. It works great. But even so, if you're not going down the route of actually improving people's health, it's a great entry point. If someone didn't know how to get involved in fitness, they might go into that. It might evolve something else.

But it's one of those things. It's a gen it's a timely thing. After five, 10 years, it'll move on to something else. There'll just be a new event that people can do. And it's the great thing about branding.

It happens all over social media. They'll put it on supplement products. You know, it's the High Rock special hydration kit. It's the same midation kit you can buy from anywhere, but Craig says high rocks, people like I'm going to use that for high rocks. It's the same method that everyone uses.

You slap a label on, it looks good, and people know about it. >> Just going back to your gym floor utilization, which this is something I'm massive on because obviously I've had I've owned gyms for years. You know, you you just mentioned about a gym where they might be putting 30% of a gym floor to High Rocks and I I bet knowing that gym cuz and I know that gym. I bet 0.2 2% of the membership will be doing or even doing the Hierrox classes, but they're giving not 0.2% of the gym floor to it. They're giving 30% of the gym floor to it. It looks good in the gym, okay?

It's got great lighting, okay? And um if you've got a good back and it's sweaty, it'll look amazing in the pictures while you do the sled push. And it's great marketing. But having been on the inside of how to run a business, I look at the participation. I look at the types of people that are participating and I look at what makes a gym sustainable from a commercial point of view, but also from a fitness point of view.

So I'm deeply deeply passionate about helping people learn how to do the things that they need to do to improve their health and longevity. That's why we exist. You have to do 60 minutes of strength training and you're not going to get the progress that you want to do from the treadmill or doing classes. Okay. Personal training is a pathway to improving and learning the skill so you can go train on your own for the rest of your life.

Invest in that. >> Yeah. >> No 100%. >> You're resting in a skill as well, aren't you? The lifting safely to be able to live a healthier, longer life. >> Yeah. >> Rather than just competing on a Sunday at Hierrox. Well, what's the skill in throwing a ball at a wall >> at the spot time and time again? >> Yeah, there's no they call it functional training. >> Yeah. Carry over to everyday life is >> Yeah. Nothing. >> I always love the phrase functional training.

I always love We're going to do functional training today. Like what is functional training? >> Just get stronger. >> It's hybrid. I mean the like it's hybrid. It means Oh, you mean SNC? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm a hybrid coach.

What? You you you run and lift weights. Oh my god. Yeah, it's like you said though, it's it's what's like in all fairness to them. It's what's what is gripping the attention.

So So they're fair to do it, but u >> and I get it. You got you're trying to get cut through. You're trying to speak to what's on trend. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> But I mean, I'm I'm an old person, okay? I don't believe in fantasy rockstar. Like I just can't like if if I see that on someone's Instagram bio, I'm just going to ignore it.

I can't I can't follow someone with a hybrid rockstar in it. High rock sounds cool, but if you if you know what it actually means like >> but Charles Pollquin used to say nothing gets worse by getting stronger. >> Yeah. >> The carryover to running, sports performance, aging, getting off the toilet when you're older, mentality, brain health, every single factor in your life will get better if you get stronger. >> Yeah. And and that's always stuck with me from a seminar. Always stuck with me. And I'm like, you can't argue against it.

It is true. And obviously you your your main well I know you've got other projects but but Brawn tries to solve that problem, doesn't it? Getting people safely stronger in a gym with good coaching. >> Yeah. So we um when the AI wave hit uh last year um I I was initially uh cuz I don't jump on as you probably tell from my personal I don't jump on anything until I'm convinced that there's a there's a benefit to it. So we had a embarrassingly we had a rule I had a rule in the business which is that if you haven't written the email yourself that I'm not going to read it and I'd send it back. anything that came from robot talk I called it I'd send it back and that and and that is a very real problem because I think that if you're removing all cognitive load on thinking about something I don't know if you've understood the problem and therefore send it to me again in your own English rather than robots who understand that you understand the problem. >> Yeah.

Um, and then I've done the full wave where actually I've gone, oh, I can do 10 things in the same time it would take me to do one and therefore I can it's a complete multiplier. >> Y um, and as a tech business, so so the point of that is I've got up and down in understanding what is the balance and also the balance varies depending on the individual where they are in the business and what role they've got as well. But we made some really really big pivotal decisions in Q4 last year. We did that um whilst we're working with the gym group uh and we did that uh because AI had broken a few barriers in terms of uh what it can do in the software development space which is game changing. So as a business that's a tech business it's had the biggest impact on us um because that's what we do. That's what we do for a living.

Yeah, >> but also because the size of our business and because we have no long-term investments to existing software or infrastructure, we were able to make really big pivotal changes like literally within weeks went from this to this and it was gamechanging both in terms of our P&L, both in terms of our operating model and we moved last quarter of 2025 to um AI fluency which is we use AI to AI native which is everything is AI first and you Now we're moving to AI agentic which I'll come to. But what that actually meant was that once we went through that transition internally of how we can use AI to change our operating model, we're then able to with some conviction look at how we can change other people's businesses using the same approach. >> Yes. >> And what we've built is the first AI on boarding tool for members into personal training. So when you join a gym now, our digital hooks will give you a AI personalized plan which replaces any generic PDF or uh generic plan of what you should eat, what you should do. It's be personalized to you and it's done in seconds. And then the technology meets the customer where they are.

So if they're in WhatsApp, it will meet them in WhatsApp. And we spent three months having over a thousand transcribed conversations with new members to upsell them to personal training and created an AI salesbot, a superbot that knows how to speak to members to understand what their goals are, what their problems are, what their objections are, and then to book them onto a personal training service. >> Yeah, that happens as an end toend service. So the PT then gets an Uber style job of members that want to do personal training, that have given their card details to do personal training, but not just at any random time. It will fit when they're on shift. Because one of our other biggest learnings was if you send a PT a job, they'll take it because they need money, but not if they've got another job, not if they're in the gym.

Yeah. So actually the schedule's got to fit their schedule. It's like sending when I explained this to to to one of our successful PTs who goes, "Oh yeah, it makes so much sense. It's like sending an Uber driver a job with the way home." I was like, "Oh yeah, >> it makes it makes so much sense." Yeah. >> Yeah. So um we've created that platform end to end and we've done that in in rapid time. job we've done it in weeks but we've done it after two three years of really really understanding the problem of the sector and then really really understanding how we could positive impact our business and then take it to operators.

So for me I think that is the biggest potential needle mover in any operator because as you know on boarding a client is such a crucial part as a member crucial part of uh the member experience. It will have a binary impact of whether that first seven to 14 days experience in their gym is good or bad which will then lead to their 90-day retention >> hugely. Yeah. >> But they've also got the highest propensity to pay for a personal trainer to get the results they want because that's when their motivation is high. >> Yes. So we've now shoehorned that technology there to fix the operators gap particularly in the in the in the high value lowcost model where that induction doesn't exist that on boarding doesn't exist. Yeah.

And that damages PT retention as well as member retention. So that brawn AI solution, I honestly feel the last four to six years of being obsessive over how to fix this problem has now been a lot through the through through AI uh through the combination of obsession of new technology. >> I mean as an operator that that that does make perfect sense. you know, the on boarding system that you're mentioning does solve a problem and it does ultimately solve a problem if we get those members into personal training and a higher percentage of our members into PT. That does solve 90-day retention and long-term retention beyond that. So, you know, as a gym owner, that does and obviously, you know, that it's something I'm interested in anyway with yourself. It does solve a problem.

So, where does this go now? What's the next thing? >> Um, we're building the infrastructure in the health and fitness space around uh the GLP1 and peptide assisted space. So the next uh the next big boom is the people that need to be connected to uh a person, a gym, a PT, a solution uh because of the growth of GP1 and peptides which is um another the macro chains that I talked about earlier over the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah. So, we've got key strategic partnerships so that we can build the UK's largest database of people on GOP1 and peptides to connect them with with the gym industry and creating that bridge between peptide GLP1 usage and gym care.

Um, >> so is that is that via sort of geographical area? So, if you're on GLP1s in Halifax, you'll be connected to a strength training practitioner at a gym in Halifax. Is that how it's going to work? >> Yeah. Postcode demand. plus code demand to to local personal trainers and and and gyms. And that's where we see a huge strategic opportunity to to help people early in their journey because it's preventative care.

Um, and we all know preventive care for for somebody that is going to go on rapid weight loss drugs with very very little guidance and knowledge need access to a personal trainer to to mitigate those those key health markers. >> They'll initially change the status quo as well on what people are doing now is they're not applying the training because they see it as a one or the other thing. I can either work this hard to achieve this goal or I do this that gets the same goal which obviously we know that that data doesn't correlate. You need to have both to get the benefits of both. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's a perfect storm for us to be honest because we identified the longevity and health span benefits of not doing strength training and and of doing strength training. And that's just now just compounded by a b bunch of people that are ill advised.

It's not their fault. They're ill- advised on actually you might be losing weight but your health markers are going down. >> Yeah. What weight are you losing? >> Well, yeah. Yeah. But the mindset of somebody who has struggled all their life to to lose any kind of weight >> is the scale weight isn't it's an obsession >> and and and and it's that it's and I don't want to take that away because there are more benefits than negatives of using the JLP ones.

Okay. Yes. 100%. Okay. and the psychological benefit of somebody being able to realize their dream of being 10, 20, 30 kgs lighter and the benefit that'll have on their heart and their mental well-being and the and their confidence and everything. And I don't I don't want to knock that, but they're ill advised in that actually you're also going to reduce your potential lifespan and your health span. What you want to do is find that balance and all that takes is 60 minutes of strength training with adequate protein and then you're going to get what you need. >> Yeah. >> And that's it.

It's it's not about knocking people doing it at all because I I believe it has a place and I believe that it's warranted, but it's about educating and making it easier for people to do what they need to do alongside it in the most frictionless place possible. Do you think there's obviously over time there'll be more and more access to this with not only GLP1s but let's call it TRT access to because on the low level of the street level of adable steroids that are available on the market now you can't stop it but is there an education process with that as well that can help people get educated on how to access and run that properly as well? >> Well, I'm glad that TRT is getting mainstream coverage as it should be. I think that underground TRT is bad. I think that correctly dossaged prescribed TRT is good. >> Yeah. >> Uh and I think that peptide assisted training is a huge opportunity for personal trainers and operators. So, one of the benefits of Bum creating through AI this infrastructure around this whole space is that if I'm on TRT or GLP1 or anything, I want to know that that personal trainer knows how to deal with people that are peptide assisted because you will treat me completely different and you should do for somebody that isn't as that's a huge huge opportunity for personal traders to increase their value and operators to increase their value proposition.

Y it's it's one of the things that you don't consider to be a problem until it's a problem, right? As once it flooded onto the market, it were almost like overnight how crazy it went. And I think the initial benefits were in your face, people losing weight, which is great. But then over time, people started realizing the the negative sides of it. This lady was bodybuilding an experiment where she was on Monaro and she had a lot of muscle mass but a little bit of fluff and she lost the fluff and muscle mass and it was quite damaging psychologically.

So to bring that forward and give people another realm of where you can get that help because it all seems acting different part it's like private healthcare and in the NHS you get a blood test of private healthare but NHS won't touch you and it's you got to bridge that gap where it's healthare they all they all should be speaking to each other. If you look at the combination of all the things that we've talked about so far, you can't help but get insanely excited about the opportunity of the gym industry and personal training over the next 10 years. And that in a world where everybody's talking about AI taking our jobs and GLP meaning people don't go to the gym. Yeah. >> Is actually a start reality of what's the opportunity. And I think that the gyms and the operators that really really understand that early will be the biggest winners because in-person experience, access to more strength training, removing all the friction of how a member can speak to a PT and making gyms more profitable better. >> Sorry.

So, um, so from a PT standpoint then, do they is it the gym that >> sort of does the membership with with the brawn or is it the PT itself or how does that work with who gets >> where the technology layer that sits between the gym operator and the PT. So, we connect members to the PT. you join Miles's gym, we will be able to create demand signals of what that person wants to achieve, why they've joined the gym, what their goals are, and then we'll match them to a personal trainer that suits their profile. It's done instantly. So, we're looking at connecting people to PTS within 24 hours of them joining the gym, but meeting the member where they are because no one actually transacts. 65% of our transactions are done outside the gym. They're done outside of ours when they're at your gym because people don't want to be sold to the gym floor. >> Yeah.

Yeah. But what they want to do is know that actually that person knows me, knows what I want and I've already got a personal connection. And you could do that through hyperpersonalized AI models, which is what we built. >> And is there uh is the things available in educational purposes for PTS wanting to get more educated on GLP ones and >> well so this is the first >> so what so that's that's another thing for me where you're going to get this high quality of personal trainers obviously a small margin at the beginning. to where >> plugging it into our education platform. >> Exactly. Exactly. That's where I'm going.

Obviously, we do his own PT courses could be something that we looked as an addition uh to to add as the course. So, I'm just thinking along our own business to be honest. So, >> yeah. No, I mean it's a it's an area that I think still we're still 18 24 months away from that really becoming mainstream because it's bodybuilders that are mainly using uh the GLP1s uh and and peptides. So, yes, we're still ahead of the curve.

Yeah. But that opportunity is there for PTS now to one differentiate themselves. >> Yeah. To get educated upfront before it before the big boom. >> But two, your customer is the one that's already spending a couple hundred quid a month on a fat loss or a peptide assisted cycle. They they've already got the propensity to spend. Yep. >> And therefore, that's the customer that you want to be speaking to.

And you shouldn't be undervaluing your PT proposition. You should be marking it up because you can help them better than anybody else. Yes. >> Any other trends you see in the next 12 or 18 months? I >> think that's enough miles. >> Yeah, I think Yeah, I think we've got enough there. We need about more. >> Any other trends?

I I think that what am I interested in? I I don't know if there's trends. What the premium bodybuilding gym space is one that I'm really interested in right now. Um we've seen a lot of growth within the the lowcost um high value model. >> Yeah. We've seen the health club market struggle.

I think your kind of premium health club top end. >> Yeah. >> Uh we've seen the midm market. It's got winners and losers. And then you've got this kind of high rocks club phase which is coming and I think that'll come and go. The premium bodybuilding gyms are really really interesting for me. I wonder what's I wonder what's going to go on there because I think there's a greater propensity of people that willing to spend between that 40 and 60 pound per month gym membership for a different kind of experience in >> I think it's the longest lasting as well, isn't it?

So throughout every fad there's been CrossFits and Hyroxes, the one that's always stayed has always been the bodybuilding. >> Yeah. and and and there's like I mean Ultraflex in in in in in the north kind of really set that trend and there's been lots of followers of that model. You've then got many many others that are following that model as well now. Yeah. NRG uh the foundry which are are growing really really aggressively. Um and what that shows is that there's still a huge space for more gyms which I think is brilliant. >> Yeah.

But actually what we're seeing is we're seeing people transition from a lower cost model that are actually willing to now spend 2030 pound which nearly double their gym membership to be in a more premium space. But actually that premium space you look at it >> it's weights and plates. >> Yeah. It's not it's not swimming clubs. >> Yeah. >> It's not all of that. They're nice to haves but actually they'll pay more for that experience. And for me I think that's brilliant for the industry.

Uh because I think that it means that you're going to have a better distribution of people. You're going to have your beginner gyms and you're going to have your more >> yeah kind of committed gym members which means that as a customer I could choose what I want which is which is great. >> Yes. >> Which I think people saw uh you know I've conversations with gym owners for the last 5 10 years. A lot of people saw the gym and the budget gym sector as a threat and they've looked at it completely the wrong way around. That gives a low barrier to entry. Correct.

For people who don't go to a gym, correct? >> And once they realize, I want something a little bit better, maybe better equipment, more variety, better plates, better bars, they're then willing to go to that next tier up, which is probably like you said, 30 to£60 a month rather than 20 pound a month. >> Yeah. >> Cuz like a car, there's tears when you go to a car dealership. Why can they not be in gyms? >> Yeah. >> There's no reason why it can't be. But the tread that that brings was I've already and it's the the data isn't conclusive, but you're seeing members follow PTs. Yeah. So you're seeing members move from gym to gym because of PT.

So what the premium bodybuilding gyms are starting to prove >> is that actually if I and I won't mention any names because some of these are customers but if I go to a lowcost uh operator >> Yeah. >> and a PT builds their business there and then the PT moves to a premium bodybuilding gym because that's what they want to do. It's better suited for their business. Yeah. The members move. And I'm seeing that time and time again.

And I'm seeing more and more operators understand that actually if I make myself more attractive to PTS >> Yeah. I'm going to get more members and those members are more loyal and also with that comes a community. >> Yeah. >> So that is almost like a secondary trend of the growth of these premier bodybuilding gyms. And the big difference now is that we've had the sordous gyms in the past. >> Yeah. >> And they were not profitable. a lot didn't sustain and it was an old man's gym but they didn't have PT businesses. Yeah. >> Within them and they were very very dependent on members keep coming back. It was actually these new premium bodybuilding gyms have got high profile PTS established PTS quality pts with loyal following. >> Yes. >> Actually that's a very very sustainable business. >> So that's an interesting space.

So that that mid-market growth shows that the market overall is getting bigger as well. >> Yeah. I think 16% of the UK have a gym membership at the last stats I looked at and that's growing from 11 12 16. I think we're going to get to a point hopefully in the next 5 years where you pass 20% of the population have a gym membership and I think that's going to be a good place and especially that's there to service >> the GLP1 >> well 30 40% of the market uh the consumer audience will be on a GLP1. >> Yes. So, if there's only 20% of the gym of the adult membership um adult uh audience with a gym membership, yeah, we're not doing a good enough job. >> No, we're only servicing 50% of the just those people. Correct. >> Correct. >> So, as that ecosystem grows, we should see a third.

We should see a third Yeah. >> of the UK adult UK population >> with a gym membership. >> With a gym membership and that's the macro change. >> Yes. >> Because that you can't argue against kind of that pull. Yeah, because the logic fits, doesn't it? Yeah. As one goes up, it's going to drag the other with it. >> Yeah. Well, I I think strength will be the healthare.

That's that's kind of that's what the science is. >> Let's just hope it hope it is. And and I genuinely believe that it can be and it I think it should be. >> I think it will be. >> So, >> I think it will be. >> Should we wrap up there? >> Yeah. Thank you so much, >> Sah. Thanks for coming on. Thank you.

Really, really interesting. >> A pleasure to meet you. >> Really interesting, mate. Thank you so much. Cheers, mate. >> Thank you very much. >> Cheers, guys. Thank you. Thank you everybody.

Cheers.