What Most PTs Get Wrong About Movement — Kim Tomlin

Hello everybody. Hope you're all doing well. This is episode 21. He's get you know what? There's only 21 episodes, but it's so hard to track at the minute.

But um >> 21. >> So hello Kim. How are we all doing? >> I'm good. Thank you very much. >> So, uh, yeah, I'm good. I'll give you obviously introduce yourself, what you do, um, where you're based, who you are. I think obviously you'll tell the story a lot better than I will.

So, if you're ready, take it away. >> Uh, so yeah, I am Kim. Um, I'm originally from down south, moved up to Leeds in 2005, so I've been up here a while. Um, and I retrained to become a personal trainer in >> if you sorry if just keep that nice and clocked if you if you can. That's >> per uh retrained um to be a personal trainer >> uh in 2011. So I've been in the industry uh since then.

Um so yeah, personal trainer pre and postnatal um biomechanics coach and an educator. So I teach within the fitness industry as well for other training companies and for myself now. >> So I look into biomechanics coach. So obviously we'll get into primal flows and what it's all about. But why is movement so important to you? What makes movement so cuz I think with the concept of personal training no one actually talks a lot about movement.

And I think you're going to be working with people with, you know, daily life problems. You know, we're in era and now of everyone's working from home or sitting down on. So, is that a big incorporation of why movement's important to you or what made it so important? >> Um, I think when I first qualified, I was um in my 30s, so a lot later in life than some that qualify. Um, and I'd had personal trainers myself before I became a personal trainer, and it was all geared towards like kind of movement goals, things that I wanted to be able to do rather than aesthetics. Uh, and then getting into it, I seemed to attract a certain clientele that had generally had like niggles or previous injuries or previous things that didn't allow them to move. as we think someone should move.

You know, >> when you go through um you kind of initial training, >> you're told someone should stand like this to do this exercise or move like that to do that exercise. And it just became apparent that that isn't always the case. >> Yeah. Everyone's building >> um so I got really interested in um movement. Now I became a Primal Flow instructor in 2012. So that was kind of one of my first CPD um qualifications certifications.

Um and it got me really interested. It sparked my movement interest from that point on. Um so then it was all about kind of what can your body do? You know, what's it capable of doing and getting really excited by movement? >> Then I was then it became so why do people move differently? What's stopping them from doing doing this that and the other?

And that led into the biomechanics coaching. So I actually did a weekend biomechanics trainer course initially was hooked and then did the biomechanics coaching diploma in 2017 I think it was. Um which gave me a little bit more insight into why the body moves in a certain way. Uh what things can be different from one person to another in terms of uh like sceal, muscular and neural. Um, so then like that just kind of sparked that whole right, okay, I can now help people move better and I've also got this system of training that I can >> I've got endless like possibilities for movement to challenge people. >> Mhm. >> Um, I was excited by it.

All of my clients became excited by it and it became the sort of thing that I did. Um and yeah then eventually started to teach for biomechanics education. >> Um and at that point I'd also been teaching other thought at the time it was creating chaos. Uh so I was teaching the primal flow instructor certification as well and I think it just grew from there. I mean I am currently studying movement education uh with movement education their movement diploma. >> Okay. that that's a long-term thing. Um, so I think just in terms of the people that I ended up working with, I know as my body has changed over the years like uh working around niggles and injuries and >> and an aging body uh which doesn't mean anything in of itself, you know, everyone is can move and can be really strong.

U but I think just having that toolbox of kind of movement ideas that isn't gym based. Yeah. that's that's body weight based, that's strengthbased, that's mobility based. Um so much that people can't do with their own body yet are lifting heavy weights. >> Yeah. And you tend to find that people medicate, ignore um just sort of they treat it like it's a normal everyday thing, which is completely normal for people's mindsets. Most the clients I deal with are constantly saying to me, "Oh, I hurt my back today, but I'm fine." Like, well, let's try and get it working first, you know, um, and it accumulates.

So, in my experience, what I found is someone gets pain in the lower back, you know, they try to do all these stretches for the lower back, but a lot of time it's going to be your hips. Sometimes it's going to be hamstrings, your quad, something's like pulling on something because everything's correct like little strings in your body. Something's pulling, so something's over working. And >> yeah, movement's always >> a really neglected thing. I find PTS neglect it as well.

Um, especially when they're working with, you know, different age ranges. And you were saying about that not everyone's body moves differently. Uh, I was listening to an interesting podcast about it and you know how I would squat and how my body looks squatting would look vastly different from how someone who is a bigger set person or even just a more nimble person. And you know, we always talk about stuff like the butt wink at the bottom or a squat. We always talk and we throw a lot of negatives in like it should look like this, it should look like that. >> But you find you try and correct it because everyone talks about the straight back. >> Yeah. >> And what does a straight back look like too?

If someone looks like that, does that necessarily mean that they've got a straight spine? >> Nine times out of 10, it's not. >> Yeah. >> Is that what you tend to try and correct people's mindsets about? Cuz if you're getting in qualified PTs, are you trying to sort of give them a different aspect of how to view stuff when they bring clients in? >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, as as a primal flow instructor, the initial kind of thing was our bodies move. They move in so many different ways. Like why do we feel we need to restrict how our body moves?

If it can move that way and it's painfree then move that way. >> Like we do stuff daily that we wouldn't correct or even think about correcting yet we see it in the gym. >> We go oh you know move your foot this way or your hips got to be here or your feet have got to be that wide apart. >> We do so many things that we don't even think about on a day-to-day basis and why aren't we training >> in a similar way? >> I suppose it's habit as well though is it? Yeah, >> cuz I always I reluctantly always send new clients the video if you ever been to a manual handling um thing at a workplace and it's babies lifting boxes or little items and it's um babies just naturally lift the way that they're supposed to lift to drop the hips and all this and you know I always do the test of drop a pen on the floor, how do you pick it up? And a lot of people just don't bend the legs whatsoever, reach for it and they always think that these pains just come from wear and tear. Um, what I tend to find now is it's just they're not letting the bodies move how they're supposed to move. >> Yeah. And a lot of people, you know, people tend to get injured when they do things that they haven't done before or they load it in a way that they haven't loaded before.

Um, rather than being like that graded exposure to load or to that movement. Um, and movement is only bad if you load it incorrectly or you haven't built up some kind of tolerance to it. >> Yeah. >> But movement in and of itself in flexion or not in flexion isn't bad. We spine flexes. >> We need to be able to lift in flexion. In fact, we can't avoid it. Even when we think we are not flexing, there is still some kind of flexion going on. >> Um, and to be afraid of that, >> I think holds a lot of people back.

So, it's trying to remove that fear. Our body's pretty robust, you know, it's we're pretty hard to to break. >> Yeah. >> Um doesn't say that things won't go wrong, but generally there's a lot of underlying issues that get you to that point. Um as the as a biomechanics coach, what you're learning about is what happens inside as well. You know, um everyone is built differently. So some people have long femurs, some people have short femurs.

That's going to change how someone's squat looks. >> Yeah. >> Drastically. So if you're trying to make everyone squat exactly the same, >> you're ignoring oop sorry you're ignoring someone's uniqueness. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um which is why there are so many different ways that you can squat. So many different tools that help you to squat. Hack squats, >> safety bar, low bar back squat, high bar back squat, goblet squat, you know, >> they're there to use and accommodate for someone's setup really.

Yeah. >> To get the best out of them. Um, but also we forget that actually our nervous system pretty much rules everything that our body does. And sometimes we can find ourselves stretching things that don't need stretching. We've just got some neural tension. >> No, absolutely. >> And that in itself will um kind of impact how someone moves. >> Yeah. I mean, so I'll just ask you this.

Let me just turn this on silent because someone always tends to read me at the worst times. But um so who do you think's harder to teach about these parame flow movements in general? Is it clients or is it qualified pts? >> Good question. um uh both in some respects because if a client comes to you with um those preceived ideas about movement either because they've read stuff, seen stuff, been told stuff or just have a fear themselves because they've done something >> that hurt them. >> Um then they will be afraid to try and move. >> But There are a lot of really good PTs out there. That movement is a massive thing and it's becoming a more of a thing, especially since I qualified. You know, it it's definitely changed a lot.

Um, and it's um I don't know, a bit of a bit of both, I think. Um, you'll have there are so many different PTs out there that have different interests. Um and they will attract different people. >> Yeah. >> Um and that's as it should be. Um but I still think that there should be an under underpinning all that an interest in movement because whoever you work with, whatever you do, I think you should be interested in movement. You should be interested in what the body is capable of doing. >> Yeah. 100%.

I mean the only reason I asked that is because the transition for us especially moving into bringing on PTs and educating them. Um the whole reason we do what we do is we wanted to put the quality back in a personal trainer because we find all too much now more PTs are qualifying every year. But you know not to put a a downer on it. It's the quality of personal trainers coming through. You know, you want to be bringing people through that are going to bring value to people.

And there's not to say that you can't learn to give value. But if someone's not coming in with the notion of helping, they're already on the back foot because the best personal trainers out there might not necessarily know as much as, you know, a qualified coach, athlete, you know, they might be the lesser known person in the world when it comes to exercise and health, but if they've got the intention of helping, they've already got the foundation that goes into it. And it's always like you say with PT with interests. I think what makes this industry so good how many people coming in there's room for everybody is that they've got that many different interests. You know, someone might have an interest in sport conditioning, someone might have an interest in pre and postnatal, you know, usually I see a lot of people using personal experience.

So someone's been on a big weight loss journey. >> Yep. >> Their brand is going to be about helping people achieve the same. And I think that's that's where the room is. But if people are coming in trying to join the herd and just try and reinvent the wheel a thousand times over rather than missing out on the fundamentals, that's where PTS are going to struggle in the industry. >> Yeah, definitely. People move. They need to be able to move ultimately.

And no matter how young you start, you want to be able to maintain as much of your movement quality as you can. Sorry, keep hitting this. Throughout the rest of your life, basically >> there is a lot of wires. >> There is this bit bigger hands than I think. Um throughout the rest of your life, you know, movement is key and you can start young and keep it going. Amazing.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't start at any age because you can improve your movement from any age and the quality of your life from any age. But um for those that I've worked with, I've always brought in movement variety. Yeah. >> That that looks different from what you might expect to see on the gym floor. >> And the difference that it makes to how people feel um and their movement quality further down the line. >> Yeah. >> Has been really noticeable uh to me. Um, and I've worked with like bodybuilders for example, um, and had them on primal flow instruct a course, uh, stiff as a board, a lot of them, >> um, and find body weight stuff really, really challenging. Really challenging because it's just not what they do. >> I saw, if you ever watched the old film, I'm sure all the the gym rats will love it, the pumping iron film with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Yeah. um he was practicing his routine before when he went on stage. He started practicing I think it was a with a ballet dancer >> being able to stretch and move in a certain way and uh he was one of sort of the first ones that actually worked on the flow of stuff like that and like you say bodybuilders can be stiff. I think it's the old notion of you just train as hard as you can you avoid all the movements that are not going to build the most amount of muscle and it can happen. I find sports got exposed for that quite a lot. Um you see rugby players and stuff like that now doing a lot more condition specific stuff that'll maintain the stuff underneath the muscle that will help you know cuz it's longevity for the stronger your body gets everything in turn needs to be progressing towards that.

Um you know you could have the strongest legs but your tendons your if they're not up to scratch that's the biggest risk. >> Yeah it's that movement variability. If they if they just do this one movement and do nothing else and you find yourself in that odd movement, well, that's when you're exposing yourself potentially. Always. >> So, you've been in the industry 10 plus years. >> Yep. >> What notices have you or changes have you seen happen in the industry, positive or negative? >> Gosh. Um, it's I mean I've it has changed a lot and I don't know whether it's it's changed or I've changed at the same time if that makes sense cuz >> I don't know the more you learn the more you learn the more you kind of think and or actually realize how much you don't know. >> I think that's a key thing. Um, it's I mean there's obviously there's always been a bit of a kind of rumbling in the background and more so maybe now is trying to get other people to recognize our contribution to health, >> wellness, fitness um alongside physio IOS, cyros, osteos, um, anyone that works with someone to improve their health and fitness. >> And I'd like to see that come about somehow.

I don't know how you're going to do that. How, like, you know, obviously there's talks of trying to regulate the industry. Don't know how you do that either. It sounds like a good idea. >> So, you are getting quality trainers coming through, but where do you even start? >> Yeah. School train.

So there's there's so many categories to it. Now this is why I haven't got a gripe with online coaching, but the problem is you can't regulate online coaching just as much you can regulate a self-employed PT, you know, who's not got a qualification, who's not registered, not insured. And the problem is it's all going well until it goes wrong, you know. Um people always tell me you don't need a PT qualification PT. Well, you don't need a driver license to drive, you know, until you have an accident or something happens where you you need to show that you've got the right certification.

And I think, yeah, you're right on what you're saying. Um, I'd love to see it regulated, but there's just too many variables. There's too many, you know, people that go under the radar. There's too many people doing what they're doing as self-proclaimed practices. there's not enough people who are educated in working with a certain population or with any diverse groups of people, you know, NOP NOPTs who are working with people with like neurological problems or, you know, stuff that they're not trained for and they're training just the same. And the problem is you can't train everybody the same.

You can have the fundamentals. >> Yeah. you can have the fundamental foundation of, you know, you got to make sure you're doing some type of resistance train, some type of strength train, some type of body weight movement, throw some car in there, get some activity in, you know, >> yeah, >> that's all the main stuff, but how you deliver that is different for every person, you know, on the lifestyle, on the past experiences. And I think when you've got an online coach who's never had any time on a gym floor with an emotional connection with anybody and understanding how different people work, you're just sending a PDF and a spreadsheet and expected income every month. >> Yeah, >> it's difficult. >> It is difficult and there are just so many there are so many ways that you can approach training someone as well. You know, there is obviously guidance out there which is fantastic as there should be for anything. But I'm sure as we know the more we spend in the industry there'll be more we have to kind of come outside of that depending on who's in front of us what's going on with them. Yeah. >> Um it's I don't know it would be really it would there's as like you just said basically there's lots of different ways that you can go you know you've got you've got your specialist subjects either based on your personal experience or your something that you've got interested in uh the types of people that you want to work with or that you happen to attract.

So you end up kind of following down that path getting more excited by it. But then that leads off into so many different directions as well. >> Did you niche down straight away? So when you qualified, did you niche down straight away or did you try and find where you fit? >> I sort I worked with lots of different people really. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> A lot of lot, you know, a lot of people want fat loss. That's a key thing for a lot of people. >> Yeah. >> Um and >> it's turned into a brand now though, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> I think that's why the skinny jobs are so popular now.

Um >> Yeah. It's funny because I I actually speak to someone the other day who sells it. I'm not going to expose them, but basically, you know, these drugs have been around for years and years and years, like semiglutide, but it's never been used recreationally. It was always a very last resort just because it has such a diminishing effect on your appetite, muscle wastage, and now it's it's basically been branded and put out to the population. And people are now taking it and not exercising.

And yes, they're losing all the weight, but they're getting different health alpha complications. And that's another thing that's added in where you think, well, it's another competitor because people don't realize that health isn't just about going to the gym because everyone sees it like a punishment, especially when they don't exercise. It feels like it's a last resort. Like, I've tried everything. I've tried, you know, slim fast.

I've tried going to the meetings. I've tried the keto diet. I've tried this. I've tried that. But they're doing everything out of instinct of fear.

Like if I try this and lose this weight, I'll be happier. >> Yeah. >> But if you And most people are finding now they'll lose the weight, but not in the way that gives them any joy or purpose. Now I've lost the weight and they're still unhappy. >> Yeah. And thinking, well, what's the point? Um >> do like to think I bring a bit of education to working with my clients as well. I feel that's key.

And trying not to have any biases on anything. um and listening to what they might be going through to be able to help. Um, and I think I think in it is important as well to recognize that maybe that what your scope of p practice is and whether that person is the right fit for you or they should be seeing someone else or that you need to refer out um and not try to be >> y >> everything because you can't and I think a lot of people think like a lot of um those looking for trainers see you as everything. >> Yeah. like literally everything and you're like but I'm not you know I've got my special specialisms. Um but I'm not your doctor. >> I can't diagnose unless you have those qualifications that allow you to um you do become a bit of jack of all trades or you have to have a lot of knowledge >> about a lot of things. >> Uh and it and it is it's really interesting. Um and I and I think that just comes because there are so many of us that do so many different things. So everyone expects that from everybody. >> Um and you have to be really clear I think in terms of how you market yourself or sell yourself in terms of what it is you are actually going to be >> providing for someone. >> So when you started out how how did you market yourself?

Was there a certain path you went down or was it the old school way of going on gym floor talking to people? >> Gym floor. I started in a big chain when I first qualified. Was there for about 6 months. >> Um >> learned as much as I could. >> Yeah. >> Um I actually found the really big gyms a little bit daunting. >> I used to walk the floor like just like well okay. And I just I didn't like that very much. So I ended up um at MP Fit which is Som. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Um, >> I love what he's doing with the Have you been seeing all the updates with the leg rooms and all that he's been doing? >> No, I haven't. >> He's uh I went down to one of his seminars and he's it's surprising how big of a unit that he's got. He's absolutely huge and he's just changing stuff, moving stuff. Um, when I on the podcast, he's a very like he project he got a lot of projects going on. You can see that he's very busy.

But yeah, so you you started working for him. or just working in his gym. Soy bike renting >> rent space at the gym. Uh much smaller gym, independent gym. >> Um and I was at the time the only female trainer there. Um but so much more mem, more independent. It didn't feel awkward talking to members.

And because I was the only female at the time and I'd like to say I throw a lot of shapes in terms of like moving differently. Yeah. >> So I sort of stood out a little bit. >> Um and yeah, I just spoke to a lot of people. Um and as I said before, I just worked with different people. Hadn't niched down by that point. >> Yeah. Um, I always just wanted to work with as many people as I could, which I think a lot of trainers do is want to get clients in.

Um, and then you start to kind of find your feet, what interests you, and that's when you start to kind of maybe attract >> Yeah. those sorts of people. >> It takes a while, doesn't it? It does take a while. I think we live in a society now where, especially with business stuff, everyone wants a shortcut. And now because we're doing all this, we get ads for other businesses doing stuff and different projects and people like you can make, you know, six figures in the first three months of working with us and, you know, you can work from anywhere. You can do this, you can do that.

You don't need to learn this, you don't need to learn that. And I just think well part of the process of being a better professional an individual is learning those things and having those hardships and especially like what we do what we try and do different is we try and say to people listen we're not going to give you the magic formula because there isn't one because everybody jets off individually there's foundations you can put in place where you know the business side is covered this and that you know you can put little marks in place that stops those early pitfalls. But essentially, you are your brand. You know, people will come to you for you because like you say, there's so many personal trainers out there offering the same sort of things. Even though they're individuals, you people buy you for you.

Like they come because they like who you are. They like your values. They like what you do. You like how you do things. And I think that is the most essential thing, especially in this industry, that to stand out, you've got to be you.

And I see it all now on social media, of people really trying to make reels that go viral. Um, it's always like, click a link and we'll do this and we'll do that. Or they try and, you know, jump on trends. And I know how algorithms work, so I know you will get in front of people, but unless you've got your message to say, >> Yeah. you're not going to attract the people that you want. You're going to have just likes and maybe a few comments, but if you actually want to attract someone, you got to speak your voice. >> Yeah, I find social media is just >> Was it easier back then than before social media boomed whereas now cuz I found the difference >> personally.

Um >> I don't know. I have a lovehate relationship with social media. >> Yeah. um look at it and take it in and follow people and get stuff from it, >> but the doing of it is like a full-time job. >> Yeah. And that's so and that it's constantly aid to think of content that's going to be engaging that gets across your message in a very short space of time. >> Um and there are so many different platforms that you can do it from. >> Yeah. >> Um do you do all of them, some of them? >> Um where are your audience? Even if you prefer a platform or your audience on it that you want to attract. >> Yeah, it's Yeah, >> it's problem is you can almost put too much time into it. You know, you could make 10 videos a week that get so many likes and a few shares or you could release one video a week that does better. >> Yeah. >> But you don't know how to catch on to that.

And yet we we struggle with this as well. Um, I think that's why our page is a lot of just podcast clips because this is something we enjoy and it doesn't take out of our day. You know, if we're constantly getting the camera out and recording everything, you know, you end up being a trainer, an educator, a full-time editor, you know, an audio person, the sound guy, and you end up with so many jobs that you you miss out on the fundamental stuff as well. And I think that's a lot of the questions that where like how much content should we post? It's not about how much cuz even if your content brings in one or two people, it's all about creating a bit of a network and the people that come to your page, you know, you look at his page and they got 20,000 followers.

Well, how many people actually engage with you? >> Whereas if you got someone with a page of 500 followers and 200 people engage, >> you're different. And I think more people are wanting to be seen than wanting to be bought from. >> Yeah. And I think that's one of the initial things that I find with social media what's difficult. But so when you're doing it now, so I know you're doing the primal flow stuff. Do you just have a nice net of clients now that you work with and they're your people and you that's your what you got to do to knock it out? >> Yeah.

Yeah. So effectively got sort of two businesses ago. So a personal training who I work with obviously movement is a fundamental part of that as is primal flow. Um and then I think I always had a goal from when I first qualified that I wanted to teach in the industry at some point. Um previous jobs I'd had um I' done quite a bit of coaching within that.

Um uh not kind of not counseling type coaching but just um mainly mainly software. >> Yeah boy. Um but um I always wanted to get into teaching. So one of the one of the first qualifications that I did was my um award him education and training so that I could teach. I could teach the floor instructor and then I got my assessor qualification in the last few years so that I can assess as well. Um and then started teaching primal flow in 2014.

So within I'd given myself three years to see uh to know what I'd given myself 5 years. Within the first five years I wanted to start teaching within three years I was um then I started teaching for biomechanics education. Now I'm teaching for myself. So I'm now trying to my ultimate goal is to transition out of PT and move into >> into full-time education. So, but my PT business at the moment is kind of like my core business in terms of my in main income. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I enjoy what I do.

Um, but I'm not trying to grow that. I'm trying to grow this. >> Yeah. >> That's the problem we having multiple businesses. You're right. Because you can't bring it all up together. It usually takes energy from one side.

You know, you can keep this plate spinning here, but it's Yeah. It's a difficult transition. >> Sometimes something gets dropped. Yeah. >> And it's and it is tough, but um this is kind of becoming my my long-term retirement plan as it >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and also just to see other trainers coming through and be excited about movement and what the body can do. Uh and and to be able to feed that back into their clients. >> Do you feel like you're learning from the trainers that come in as well >> all the time?

Yeah. >> Yeah. That's what I find all the time. I uh what's been great about doing this as a job and also as a business is you meet different people from all walks of life who have a different concept on training and it actually teaches you some stuff. I've took stuff away from learners. I'm like yeah I'm going to use that because that's really good and I think you said it earlier about being open-minded and um a quote that I like is the best place to be is in a room that you feel like you don't deserve to be in. be among people that are are better than you or what you perceive as better than you because you're gonna learn more and the expert level that everyone has is that I don't know enough to do this as a job, but the people that you're going to work with see you as an expert.

So, you know more than them and that's why they're paying you. You might not know more than one of your peers and one of your friends who's a PT who's been in it for years, but you know enough to start. And I think that's the conception that everyone needs to get rid of because no one gets into a business knowing everything about it. It's it's something that tends to blossom and grow over time. >> Yeah. And as it should like if you know everything >> Yeah. >> then that's fun really, is it? >> Yeah.

Exactly. If everyone knew everything, it'd be a very dark, boring place. But like learning from other people is is exciting because like um there you know there isn't one teaching experience where I haven't come away and learned something new >> but I know that all of my learners have also gone away with a hell of a lot >> and if you're creating conversation within your learning environment as well hopefully they are making new connections there as well um and we'll learn off each other. >> Yeah. Um it in ter like in in terms of the primal face stuff it's movement like our body moves in many different ways and I haven't done one even even my clients will do something and I'm like oh that was different that wasn't what I quite asked to do but quite like that and they'll move in a different way that I haven't thought of. Mhm. >> Um, doesn't mean you have to replicate it, but >> your body I was like, "Okay, yeah, that that works.

That's interesting." And then you see that as well and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's new. >> Thought about doing that." Or, "Yeah, that that cool. I like that." >> My clients tend to hate that when I've done when I've taught a course because they go, "Oh, what have you learned now? >> What are you going to make us do now?" >> Have you got a little notebook right? >> Yeah. It was very exciting. But, um, I get really excited by it. I get excited by um seeing other people being excited. >> Yeah. >> And >> yeah, that's what brings you joy. >> Yeah. >> I think that goes across PTN as well.

I I love seeing that spark light in behind a client's eyes when they start getting the fire and the feeling and actually enjoying coming to the gym. It becomes like a therapeutic place, you know, cuz for the first five, six, seven sessions, they're coming there as a punishment like I need to lose this weight. >> Yeah. >> I need to move more. I need to do this. >> And then it turns slowly into I want to come to the gym. I'm enjoying what I'm doing. I like this lift.

I want to progress here. >> I missed it last week. I missed doing this >> accountability. And it it works with education as well. You know, some learners might go away and think, "Oh, this is really dragging me down. There's a lot to learn.

There's this and that." Then some like, "Well, I learned more than I did yesterday." So, it's another step forward. And I think that can translate into business as well, you know, cuz the next question was, if you could go back right to the start, clean slate, starting out as a PT with the knowledge that you have now, gosh. >> Yeah. >> Would you or could you do something different? Why? >> Yeah, it's a question. A big question. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh feel like I might need to pause that. >> Sorry, I'll just keep running it. >> Okay.

Um I don't know in all honesty because part of the learning is part of the journey. Yeah, >> that sounds very but >> that's next to all this live laugh love poster. >> Yeah, I can't imagine starting and knowing all of this. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because I would have already started. Like how do you get to know all this without going through it? >> Yeah.

Well, >> I feel like I feel like I'm not answering that. So that's a massive question. >> So the conception is like if someone sat down and told you like if you went back and told yourself 10 years ago, >> this is what you're going to learn. this is what you're going to do, this is everything. It still won't come off the same way it did because experience builds a bit of a callous. You know, even the I think the failures are more valuable than the positives. You know, the wins are great, but the failures teach you how to win. and you know that client that you didn't manage to get or that client that didn't stop working with you or that lead that didn't come through or that investment went to pot. >> You know, all these little things that you could chalk up to being a really bad experience teaches you something that down the line.

And it does take hindsight to do that cuz in the moment you're like, "Oh, This is all terrible." And that never goes away. you know, you kick yourself quite a lot and then later on another occasion might arise where you've got that experience. You're like, right, I know how to tackle this and it comes off. And yeah, it's always a difficult question because I mean the best answer I ever got was someone simply saying, well, if I had all this knowledge going back, then I don't think I'd have made the mistakes and the mistakes make you better anyway. And I think >> that's it. is >> I don't know if I want to change it. There's things that have happened that I wish hadn't happened, but some of them are out of my control. >> Yeah. >> And if I'd have if I'd have had that knowledge, then I wouldn't have done it.

But then I wouldn't have got that experience. >> And that experience is valuable. >> Mhm. >> I don't know. >> Like I might have moved quicker through my journey. >> Yeah. Because if I had that knowledge, I wouldn't need to gain it. So, I wouldn't need to. >> Yeah. Speed's not always the best thing in the world, is it? Yeah. >> It's a hard It's a hard thing to teach cuz I think if I was someone just getting listen to these podcasts or listen to other people's posts, you want the shortcuts.

We're all wired now to take shortcuts because it's just easier. It's faster. You know, Google Maps say, "Oh, you can get here three minutes faster. I'll go that way." We're just yeah we're just built to think what's the fastest route there and the realistic part is is it about speed or is it about knowledge cuz you know you could start earning money quicker but the fact is how are you going to sustain it? You could have a big So what tends to happen with a lot of businesses is you earn money quite quickly and the cash flow starts building.

Oh, we cracked it. This is it. And then something changes or something evolves and you can't adapt to it and then you're like, oh, this is all gone to crap. Like it's a failure. >> And if you haven't got that experience built up, you can't work against those peaks and troughs. I think Miles called it the valley of despair where you're down. >> Yeah. >> And if you don't know the way up or the way through, that's the difficult point.

And I think you perform best um personally I do when there's a little bit of pressure. You know, your back's against the wall a little bit and tends to bring out sometimes the best in you can bring out the worst sometimes as well. But when it's all, you know, happy, joy, money's coming in, everyone's happy. I don't think you appreciate it enough until it gets bad. >> Yeah. And you know several years ago now we won't talk about what happened but the the year where everything changed you know the fact that was able to adapt I think survive that >> bring a business online bring in new things >> y >> you know that ended a lot of people in terms of their businesses and what they could do >> and you know and a lot of people are still surviving the impact of that >> the repercussions of CO has been insane. >> But without that as well. >> Yeah. >> Like certain things we I mean we're so much further ahead than we maybe would have been if that hadn't happened in terms of how we communicate with people. >> Yeah. >> Um what's available to us, what's available to people to access as well. um which just adds to that diversity of uh you know who's out there and how we can access it and >> how good they are or etc. it.

I don't know. There are there is parts of me that maybe wished I'd done things a little bit differently coming out of it, but I don't know if I could have done. >> Yeah, given the times. It's co were a weird one. I mean, um I started Ping just before it. So then at the time I had another job.

So I was one of these that worked all the way through. Um we were classed as the key worker, the job that I was in. But I always kept my eye on what was going on in the world. Um Ryan, my business partner, he had a lot of success with it because he took his business online and it was an online coaching business of sorts. So it really boomed because he already had the platform.

He just moved from there and it widespread which was great. Some businesses suffered. You know, a lot of people really struggled making ends meet especially in face stuff. Um it's yeah it did show it were like a make or break for a lot of people and I think the people that got through it with a positive then the reason why people struggled is I think the world changed that quick you weren't able to adapt fast enough and the people that did really prospered and I think coming out of it like you say we are forever changed and communications changed quite a lot now and I think that's why PTS are now going to struggle so much with the on floor stuff. I really do because people have become a lot more disassociative. >> Yeah. >> Especially in these big public gyms, you know, sometimes I go to one and I tend to observe and you know, people looking down, people doing a set, looking down again.

Now, if I was an on floor PT, I'd feel quite intimidated by that because interrupt someone, haven't you? Like >> that's the difficult part cuz the the old thing was you walk up saying how's it going? You having a good session? Is there anything you're struggling with etc. and it opens up a conversation where if you do that in a public gym a lot of people would look at you know with a blank eyes like I'm busy. >> Yeah. Like >> so that's I think that's why online coaching was so good. >> Yeah. >> But a good thing about it I'd say is that the nos is just as important.

I think you got to get used to getting told no, >> you know. I think that try we still get told no now. I get told no quite a lot. Um I think the nos make you better. >> Yeah. >> You know um >> make you more resilient. That's >> Yeah, >> 100%.

Because if you get five nos and one yes that you you know you got to ask six people to get a sale >> and you got to keep going. You got to keep going knocking on doors. But what are your projections then or what are your ideas going into 2026? Because obviously we're in the Christmas hearts. is a fun time, but as every business owner thinks, what's next year? What's going on next year?

What's happening for Kim? >> Um, well, hopefully uh Primal Flow will get bigger. Um, I'm in Leeds, obviously. Um, and I've only been able to run the course in Leeds so far. So, it's finding venues in other areas. >> Mh. >> Um, cuz I've got people interested in attending um that just aren't able to to travel um or don't want to travel as far as they need to. So, being able to deliver in other areas would be really good.

Um, got a few options. So, it's just reaching out for those. And I have been considering putting aspects of it online and making it rather than being a two-day face toface course because it's really practical course. >> Yeah. >> Like it's really key to be in front of people. >> Um to get that experience and to be able to explore. >> Mhm. >> Um but if I can make it a one day then that might make it more accessible to more people. Um so it's considering that uh for next year and um yeah just getting hooking up with people like yourself and talking to um more people and seeing how I can start to maybe create some kind of pathway where um new PTs come through and and my course is something that they want to attend because they see it as being >> um beneficial to their learning. um and opening up kind of their movement world that maybe gets overlooked a little bit in level two, level three. >> Um but any of course it's about layering, isn't it? You know, you need to start with this bit of information, then you need to build on it, and then you need to build on it.

And there's always layers. There's >> always layers. >> Yeah. And you've got to have the inspiration to move into different areas. I I tend to find some of the best learners going with their idea already. maybe a specific person want to help or a specific journey you want to take someone on and they craft the course around doing that because when it's a little bit more case study like a little bit more specific, it's a lot easier to understand it when it's just blank information coming at you. You know, do you really want to learn about the antagonist muscles?

Do you really want to learn about the mitochondria? >> Yeah. when you're thinking about it in terms of working with someone probably prenatal or post-natal like right that makes a lot more sense this works here so yeah it's it's progression and I know for yourself obviously we're talking about doing stuff together I think that's really good to bring forward as well but you also said you're going to India in 2026 >> I am yes um so but very exciting holiday >> going on the 3rd of January which right now seems like a really crazy idea cuz >> it's so cold. >> It's so like >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I got a um just over a week in Sri Lanka hopefully cuz it's not looking too good over there at the moment with uh floods. Um but no news is good news for that and then a week in India. So yeah, well just yeah just over two weeks. >> Is that your way of just shutting off for a little bit and letting the the juices flow? Was like a reset?

Yeah, I mean it has been for various reasons this year been a bit of a bit of a year um to say the least. And I'm I'm ready to let my brain >> decompress. >> Decompress. But hopefully get all the ideas flooding in cuz when you when you're like this all the time, it's really hard to get some good ideas. >> Yeah. when you're on all the time, it's hard to it's hard to think ahead cuz you you spend most of your time putting out fires or sorting things out whereas it's scaling. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely.

I'm juggling holding a load of stuff and that'll be like ah so yeah, I'm really looking forward to just a break which I'm hoping will give me that chance to just go right I'm going to come back and attack 26. >> Fantastic. get all these things in place that I would have hoped to have happened later part of this year but just hasn't. >> Where can everyone find you? Where can people find your page? I know you got a YouTube channel as well. Tell the world. >> Yeah. So, um, Primal Flow on Instagram, Facebook, and Tik Tok.

Um, yeah, that's a whole new >> We're on Tik Tok now. >> Yeah. Not quite got my head around that yet. Uh, and there is a YouTube channel. So, um, there are example Primal Flow workouts on there. And again, more content to be filmed for 26 for those.

Um, yeah, Primal Flow looks a bit like this. >> Yep. Show the badge. We'll make sure all the information is below in the video, but thank you for coming on. I really appreciate that. It's been fantastic. >> Uh, make sure you like and subscribe and we will see you on the next one probably by before the end of the year. >> See you later.

Bye.